Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Is discursive reasoning a lead weight or an avenue of enlightenment ?

What goes on in the mind as proffered through reason and also subconscious mobility both have an indisputable role in the survival of life.

Here's a story to throw into MH2's campfire of experience:

Don Serl and I where at wit's end after thrashing down 3000' of bush in the dark after taking a wrong turn descending Mt. Johannesburg in the Cascades.

Our reward was a raging creek at valley bottom to cross and 2 miles of logging road back uphill to his car.

We should have camped, exhausted right there, for the night. But no! like all people we felt guilty and duty bound about making it back to work Monday morning. What a f*#king mistake.

So we drove. We drove out a logging road in the North Cascades thinking we could get all the way to Vancouver by shear will power.

"Jim, turn the wheel hard left, now " came through clearly to my sleeping brain as I wandered the road face down at the wheel, going 30 MPH.

BOOM!

I became really awake watching a mail box fly over a shattering windshield and a fence get eaten under Don's car. The real business was the wood from the power pole driven into the joint between the front tire and it's wheel and the same wood stuffed into the gap between the front passenger fender and it's door.

After dissipating inertia,we came to a stop. The farmer came out and said, "It's a bad road, this happens a lot." He then offered the grace of having us spend the night in his camping trailer on his property. Thanks man !

I would like a physical explanation for what demanded I turn the wheel before a head on crash into a telephone pole. Maybe I was half awake, I'll never know.

All I could think then and think now is that I should be dead and responsible for Don asleep in the back seat, being dead as well. I have no explanation for why this isn't so. It's not reasonable. I was out cold and fully asleep at the wheel.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
Has Werner ever had a post that said something positive, or provided some wisdom or information that we can enjoy. NO
it's all been negative, I guess that's where he dwells

He has nothing but ill words for us
We are all stupid in his mind, yet he won't even tell us what he believes, because he knows he can't defend it, he read it all in some book long ago, and then filled in the cracks with his own soulman mysticism,
it only makes sense to him. He is an island barking at the passing ships.
It's comical really.
WBraun

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
He is an island barking at the passing ships.

LOL, good line ......
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
BASE, it's all intentional, pestering and lampooning you. Arrogantly sticking pins in the evaluating bubble. It's an old Renzai trick for shattering pride and rigidity. The rancor you are feeling is the same we all felt when first working on the whole "Mu" question


Hmmm . . . I wonder where we all signed up for a course in Renzai?

I don't think I did. But BASE may have.

I don't think I need a course in Renzai. I'm way too old, and would strike back if provoked, rather than humble myself to achieve Nothing. And the "intentional pestering and lampooning" should be reserved for those who signed on the dotted line.

If this isn't religious proselytizing I don't know what is.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
Well said Base
Largo has brutally insulted me over and over, he even called me autistic, which is way below the belt I can take it, but I sure as hell tell you this,
Largo can't take the criticism he deserves, I won't even say it here it's too brutal.


Hypocrite. The biggest one on ST. You got em ALL beat Craig. "Too Brutal". What a sham. Unless anyone is 100% with you, they are insulting you. Brutally at that.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:45pm PT

. It is little wonder that we have difficulty hearing or talking to one another. At least the conversations (discussions?) have provided the greatest distinctions without wallowing in the personal (religious) baggage associated with our youth.

I'd have to say I like asking people about their childhood. I feel that I dont know where their going without knowing where theyve been. Especially in the manner that they argue.
I don't think people change much after they blossom. Approximately age 7. They might know more at age 70, but the characteristics are much the same.

All I mean is, we are delt a hand at birth that we must play out..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
You got that right Chief!!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:04am PT
Note that most every one of these posts is about what a low-down scoundrel I am and a religious salesman pandering "nothng at all," but all I have really said was that the discursive mind is not the end all and that anyone insisting that it is lacks the experiences to know otherwise. Imagine if someone didn't know a single thing about rocke science but had some ideas on tghe subject, based on their own experience, and posited these as viable, and got bent when people called bullsh#t.

While the attacks on the messenger have been legion - Craig has said that every spiritual seeker from the beginning of time is full of sh#t and deluded, but that's not poor form, rather "the truth" - how many people have made any effort to set aside the discursive long enough to see what was left? Granted the work is not for everyone. Not by a long shot.

It is clear that most people have no idea whatsoever that there is more involved here than Craig's "fuzzy feelings." Again, where is the willingness to find out? When I say some people are being dishonest in this regards this is based on a few simple things: Claiming an interest in this material while doing no more than arguing about it; claimming the sum and substance of subjective adventures is totally knowable by way of discursive modes, having never traveled into said adventures; having gained little ground in subjective studies and universalizing this to mean that anyone suggesting that progress can be made is a charletan and wampum peddler. If someone said, "I have no idea whatsoever about any of this and couldn't care less," you simply let those people live their lives. The people who hang on and argue but for various reasons are either frightened or can't muster the gusto to venture into the dark, sparks are sometimes needed to start the fire.

A lot of the staunchest critics of all of this are actually the best candidates for the work. I think at least some of them realize this, if only vaguely.

Just note how unbelievably difficult it is for people to change tracks, even an inch. Conditioning is one of the quirks of being human. Outrage is a portal in.

JL
MH2

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:12am PT
Thanks for that story, Jim! Stuff happens that we cannot and should not explain. Any explanation simply would not be an improvement. We need mystery. No one is going to explain Bob Dylan to my satisfaction. Any attempt would be beside the point.

I especially like the hospitality you were shown after the crash. I've been there, too, and it makes you more willing to help others when the need arises.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:20am PT
I don't think anyone regards you as a scoundrel, John. The thing is that what you posit isn't necessarily wrong, just based on faith.

I posted about a car crash that had deep to this day meaning for me but no relevance to fact even though I had the picture in my mind from point of collision to aftermath.

Something happened that changed the course of 2 lives that night. There was a physical reality and a personal action that changed things for the best.

What caused what ?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:46am PT
The thing is that what you posit isn't necessarily wrong, just based on faith.


Not true. I have called such comments dishonest in the past - perhaps harshly, as Mike pointed out - because while you offer this as somethng you actually know, in fact you do not. In this regards it is worth noting that to my knowledge, neither Mike, Jan or I have made pronouncements on anyone else's experience, trying to interpret what it is or what it means. While many have guessed about our experience and have offered the most fantastic pronouncements - from "revealed wisdon," to wuwu, to delusions, to blarney, most of our comments have been per approaching your experience from a limited, evaluating perspective. Scientism insists that evaluating is limitless, though as we have pointed out, this is just more blowback from the evaluating mind itself, so how would you know otherwise? You can't and you don't, though you insist you do. That's the rub. And to point this out is wrath inducing in many cases. But that's the work.

I have said 1,000 times none of this has anything to do with faith or beliefs or ideas. It has to do with practice and experience.

JL
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:03am PT
The thing is that what you posit isn't necessarily wrong, just based on faith.

Spirituality has absolutely NOTHING to do with faith. Nothing. Faith is of human origin. Thus if you look at Spirituality with a human concept, science, it will not comprehend it. Thus it nullifies it. Refutes it with human logic/mathematics/codes etc.

practice and experience.

Yup. Many times over. Many visits over a long period of time. At least in the human perspective that is.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:53am PT

Note that most every one of these posts is about what a low-down scoundrel I am
I don't think that! At least ur Search'in.

a religious salesman pandering "nothng at all,"
This I agree with. Because without God you are "nothing"
Just like Spirituality is "no-thing" without a God.

how many people have made any effort to set aside the discursive long enough to see what was left?
Only every true christian.

"I have no idea whatsoever about any of this and couldn't care less,"
That's because ur only peddleing meditation. Insight for only the users wills. The term meditation was used way back in Gennesis. Over 5k yrs ago. To get inline with Gods will. Not to separate from it. Even Jesus meditated to align with Gods will.

A lot of the staunchest critics of all of this are actually the best candidates for the work. I think at least some of them realize this, if only vaguely.
Ur right! God likes to choose people with spoonk to be His messengers.
This quote reminds me of the great apostle Paul. Prolly one of the Greatest critics of God in all time. He talked big time shite about God. Until God "showed" him the way. Then he became the Greatest messenger of all time. Do you know the story? go-B can prolly give you the chap.
and verse.

Just note how unbelievably difficult it is for people to change tracks, even an inch.
For a Man to approach God, he must reveal complete nudity, IE complete humility.
Jesus didnt come with a sword for judgement. He came with open arms and compassion.
He councils and consoles me everyday. My ONLY motivation on this thread is to share with
my friends the most incrediable climb ive ever approached. And it AIN'T about fuzzy feelings.
It's about REALISM.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:57am PT
No one is going to explain Bob Dylan to my satisfaction.


You can say that again. How about "There aint no success like failure, and failure ain't no success at all"


Any of you geniuses got that one figured out?

(Not you Braun)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:17am PT
There aint no success like failure, and failure ain't no success at all"

You learn more about how to do things by your failures or mistakes. Still in the end that is not enough to succeed . Dylan is pointing at yet another supreme irony in life .
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:20am PT
In which case, what do you call success?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:22am PT
Finally getting up the route with no falls after taking several on previous attempts.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:26am PT
I always thought a climb was never a success unless the failure was successfully completed with friendship intact
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:30am PT
In that case the Dylan song you want is " Positively 4 th Street"
LOL
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