Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 5, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
I can see there is no reason to bail in a sinking ship.

The physicalist says that religion is a belief that cannot be proven via physical means. By this, I assume he or she means by the five senses. That which cannot be shown by the five senses must be simply a belief. (I think the physicalist should replace the word "proven," with "supported.")

A spiritualist asks what counts as evidence. No one answers, I suppose, because they know there is so much more they claim they "know" that is not supported by their own five senses.

No one can unequivocally prove that anything exists beyond their own existence ("I am"). Some call out that is solipsism, as though solipsism were illegitimate, but they do so only because they have nothing in turn to offer. Since no one cannot prove that anything exists beyond their own existence, then all claims of knowledge (beyond "I am") are simply beliefs.

A belief is a belief.

All beliefs are false. No matter what their form, they are simply models, frameworks, theories, and suppositions. The only difference among beliefs is the purported justifications for holding them (empiricism, religion, myth, instinct, intuition, yada yada). These are forms of philosophies, and they are themselves beliefs. You have experience, but what is that?



To Ed and Base: to demand that one defines a concept of another who claims that all concepts are false is a petitio principii, isn't it?

One need not define anything in order to experience it. Most usually experience precedes attempts to define anything. As I've said above, since anything is a bracketed instantiation of reality, no definition is definitive or complete. That makes all of them false.
WBraun

climber
May 5, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
All beliefs are false.

And YOU really believe that .........
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 5, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
As I've said above, since anything is a bracketed instantiation of reality, no definition is definitive or complete. That makes all of them false.

Uh, no... that makes them limited. It's not a black and white thing; shades of gray exist.
MH2

climber
May 5, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
All beliefs are false?

Including my belief that MikeL exists?

Or did I/we invent him?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
The physicalist says that religion is a belief that cannot be proven via physical means. By this, I assume he or she means by the five senses.

No, not just the five senses, there are a million other ways to test something to see if it is real OR NOT!
WBraun

climber
May 5, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
Especially said by a man with no sense ..... ^^^^^
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 6, 2013 - 12:31am PT
It IS the argument I'm making, Ed. I can't help it. I don't say there is nothing. I don't say you or the universe doesn't exist. I'm only saying that I can't know that they exist. (Is this such a nuanced or complicated point of view to you and the rest of this bunch?) I said long ago I only want it one way. I only want the truth. Whether you are a man of the Almighty, a true blue scientist, or a real philosopher (may they rest in peace), the truth is all that you should ever want--but I could be wrong. I hear distraction is just fine.

Lies are lies. Hate them. Kill them. Destroy them. Get real.

Yeah, Werner, I really do believe that all beliefs are false. (Say what you will. )

The problem that I see repeated over and over again here is people saying what exists as though there could not be any doubt. It's arrogant, it's hegemonic, it's naive. It closes off an infinite number of possibilities, and it's the kind of thinking that gives this world a bad name.

As long as you're using language in a referential way--that is, to refer to experience--then fine. Say what exists. You can say whatever you want. But when you say that a thing IS an X, Y, and Z definitionally (like you've been demanding of Largo), then that makes you a bit insane in my book. I mean, . . . you're kidding, right?

Ed, you must know that one cannot prove anything in science (falsificationist), that you must rely upon either reason or empirical data to support anything, and that you must rely upon parsimonious modeling. Fine, that's what science does. I'm not here to deny any of that. I do it myself.

On the other hand, I've been here saying that one shouldn't go around saying what things ARE unequivocally. It can't be done, and anyone who's had good training in the business of science should damned well know it.

All these problems can be corrected easily by simply saying that you're making claims, that what IS is what *appears* to be, or that from your point of view you see. . . yada yada yada. Get it?

You guys laugh and come up with all sorts of unkind jokes about this, but you know in your hearts that you don't know much at all with real certainty.

If you don't, then the joke's on you.
WBraun

climber
May 6, 2013 - 01:33am PT
I really do believe that all beliefs are false.

How does that work?

Your belief is that all beliefs are false.

So then YOU are false.

But you are not. You are a person and have individuality.

And that individuality and personality is true.

Even the gross materialists do not fall into that trap.

Only the the mayavadi impersonalists fall into the trap of merging onto the impersonal which is suicide.

But everywhere is individuality, personality and variegatedness which never ever ceases .......
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 6, 2013 - 03:56am PT
Werner brings up an interesting point I have long contemplated and that is how much of what we find on the spiritual path is what we expect to find? If you think the end result is nothingness, then probably that will be what you find. If you think the end result is union of two separate entities, probably that is what you'll find. More challenging are the Buddhists who find a personal relationship with a deity (Amida or Guru Rinpoche for example) and the Christians and Hindus who found an impersonal aspect of God after union with the personal one.

As for truth, I have to agree with Ed. Maybe because I interview people for my research and I never get the same exact story from two individuals (not to mention the number of people convicted by eye witnesses who were later freed by the science of DNA), I have less regard for finding the truth. And then there's the varying stories I've been dealing with the past few days about the big Sherpa-Western fight on Everest and the ensuing discussion of who is telling the truth. The reality is all of them probably are or at least think they are.

All a social scientist can do is try to record everyone's viewpoint and explain why they might hold that viewpoint given their life experience.

Great discussion the past few screens by the way.
MH2

climber
May 6, 2013 - 11:07am PT
As long as you're using language in a referential way--that is, to refer to experience--then fine.


Objective experience, subjective experience, or both?


In reference to what IS I will unearth an overly smooth notion posted before MikeL's appearance as a poster on ST:

Science does not ask what a thing IS, it asks what happens when you poke it with a stick.

Although that is far from the whole story.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 6, 2013 - 11:17am PT
If you think the end result is nothingness, then probably that will be what you find. If you think the end result is union of two separate entities, probably that is what you'll find.


I'm wondering why you use the term probably. Shouldn't that be "possibly"? clearly you are not certain of this outcome so why imply a greater likelyhood than is justified?

It reminds me of Karl Roves famous quip " We create our own reality", which to an extent is true in the context that he applies it to - politics. To an extent is the operative word. In his case unsubstantiated mythology and imagery is used to build a ideology that "creates" our reality. The problem is, whatever is based on myth can only operate so long as the environment it operates in ( reality) allows it. Laissez faire capitalism for instance, or communism. The fuel it runs on is belief which we all know does not have to be well pinned to reality, but the engine still must be made of real honest to god material and the road must be well paved and not lead to any real cliffs.

Thats how it works here on earth anyway when you follow what you prefer to think rather than determine what you think by what you know. How that translates to the next world I have no idea but i suppose you may be right. It may be possible.

If Karl Rove had been truly interested in accurately describing right wing influence he would have said something like " We create our own reality..... but only to the extent that you dumb fuks allow it" but that of course grossly reveals the vulnerability in his belief structure and we can't build a movement on that eh?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 6, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 6, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
If you shut your eyes, you won't be able to see sh#t.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONaPq2L-MRg
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
WBraun
climber May 5, 2013 - 08:14pm PT

Especially said by a man with no sense ..... ^^^^^

now that you take it back, yes, you make no sense what so ever
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
It reminds me of Karl Roves famous quip " We create our own reality",

No one creates a skeptics reality, that is what the skeptic movement is all about, rejecting created realities, and exploring the objective reality. And only science can be the arbitrator when it comes to the truth, the knowledge that science has provided on all topics is the what the objective reality has to say.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 6, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Gee, look up! If you shut your eyes, you won't see sh#t.

Credit: BASE104
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 6, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
Look small!! If you shut your eyes, you won't see sh#t.

Credit: BASE104
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Natural variation within a species,
the unseen energy that powers evolution

These plants are from the seed batch!, every individual plant is different, every individual can have a trait that makes it special that will be a selective advantage for more offspring.
WBraun

climber
May 6, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
the unseen energy

God ..... can be seen with his third eye.

The gross materialists are blind without it .....
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2013 - 10:08am PT
LOL ,,, good one Ed ....

:-)
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