Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 17, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
My question is simple.

How do you even know that you exist, Mike? If you are going to doubt everything in the Universe, or at least how we perceive it (what is "IT") then it is perfectly natural to say this:

You are the only person in the Universe. Not only that, you aren't a person, nor do you have your own mind.

If we can't agree on sound, or the electronic spectrum, which is baby play for science, then how can you be sure that you know the truth about anything. Where do you draw the line at what is even real?

I asked this before: When you, and I guess I will throw JL into the mix, meditate, do you do it at a Metallica Concert or do you try to do it in a quiet place with few distractions from your human senses?

For all you know, this is a dream. This thread doesn't exist nor does the website, nor does the web, nor does the planet, nor does the universe.

For there to be the truth that you seek, there must be a medium in which truth exists. I would call it the universe, but what if you don't even live in a universe? How would you know? For that matter, how do you know that you aren't living in a cosmic zoo, 200 light years from Earth?

How do you know that that painted wall exists?

These are all valid questions if you doubt the existence of sound as real, and your interpretation of it is true.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 17, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
But in fact said movie is almost entirely a projecting or our own minds, organizing experience and the undifferentiated flux out there (which IS real) ways that our brains can get hold of.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 17, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
It is easy to be an enlightened guru on top of a mountain.

Maintaining that point of view in the city is like walking a razor's edge.

 Tom Brown Jr.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 17, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Religion is about unreasoned but immutable and total adherence to a belief system. Climbing is about discovery and problem solving.....some correlations there,
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
Good point Tom and Tom!

I reached the place some years ago where it would have been much easier to go off to meditate somewhere unencumbered by possessions or relationships - so easy that it seemed like a cop out. Now I make slower progress due to worldly entanglements but I am also more useful, at least I feel so, to my fellow humans. Perhaps it is a cultural thing. Most western Buddhists are lay people, not monks.

Unfortunately as life stands now, most of us get wisdom only at the end of life when our active days are over. I like the idea of the Theravada Buddhists in places like Thailand where three years are spent on spiritual pursuits early in life, just after high school, to provide a reorientation before plunging ahead, a kind of national spiritual service.

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
We're not talking religion anymore Jim. It took us about 14,000 posts but we're onto other territory now, looking for new paradigms and new insights into old ones.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
Nothing new...under the sun.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
I was trying to highlight the problem of language. Language is a limited technology, yet it can generate infinities (unendingly different strings of meaning). It's one of the reasons folks in cognitive science and AI were so interested in how people learn and understand language.

You have no idea how much i appreciate and agree with that concept!

most of my professional career has been spent matching information technology capabilities with people's needs and problems


my conclusion is that MOST of the problems that plague humans are due to the boundaries, limitations, abuse, and disabilities of human language

we overhyped pokeymons have so impressed ourselves with the hubris of our language that we are destroying ourselves on the razor edge of linguistic limitations

we might still have a chance for survival of the species if we can grow up past this obsession


we too can look like Mars
we too can look like Mars
Credit: TomCochrane
MH2

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
Another rumination on the soul: Perhaps the soul does not reside "in" the individual to which it is attached. What if a person's soul consists of all the memories or perceptions of that person by others? When the person dies the soul lives on for a while in memories held by others. This would be a little like the stages of death formulated in some African religions. First there is the death of the body, then years later the second and final death as memories of that person fade and disappear.

OK, back to objective/subjective discourse.


;>)
MH2

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
That goes for the soul of Trad.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
First there is the death of the body, then years later the second and final death as memories of that person fade and disappea


Any chance a second burial payment from the SS Administration might be forthcoming?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Any chance a second burial payment from the SS Administration might be forthcoming?


2 cents for a gentle breeze.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
2 cents for a gentle breeze.

For $3. 50 I was hoping for a trained Raven to repeat "nevermore" until sunrise the following day.

Credit: Ward Trotter

And the raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted- nevermore

Poe The Raven
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
a person doesn't have a soul...(a common misconception)


a person IS a soul


a person HAS a body...(sometimes)



Credit: TomCochrane
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
a person IS a soul

For Poe his soul was in the shadow of the raven floating on the floor.
Nevermore.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
A sound is not the excitation of waves. A sound is a word that objectifies a subjective audio experience. This is subtle thought.

could be... but the hypothesis that sound is also something objective works quite well too. You see the fallen trees in a forest at the bottom of an avalanche run out, toppled by the wind blast, "the sound" of the avalanche, the pressure of the atmosphere.

Both of these things cannot be true.
Either the sound originates in the world externally in relation to the the listener or it is manufactured by the listener internally and then superimposed upon the world.
I'll go with the less romantic notion that sound is produced externally.
There is plenty of secondary evidence that supports this contention, such as purely visual indications as noted above.
There is no evidence that points to a subjective origin of sound waves.
There is a subjective experience of sound waves, however, of course.
The interaction of the subjective and the objective is the sum total of the art of music..
If the experience of sound were confined to either one or the other i'm afraid music would not exist as we know it.

In the video above it is clear that the man is drinking a relatively inexpensive Pinot Noir and that he likes his steak rare . This is what he gets for talking to a dude who wears undersized sunglasses in a dark interior .
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
there is a subjective part of perceiving sound as well as an objective part...

Yes, of course. This is central to the creative process in music.
Composers who write pieces for ensembles can clearly hear clarinets or cellos or timpani.

The more practiced they are at this skill the more elaborate the parts. A composer may be playing a sequence of chords at the piano and suddenly hear an 8 measure melodic line from an oboe- as clear as a bell. This melodic line will be perfectly pitched and display a rather aesthetic line , perhaps resembling an ocean wave as it progresses across the staff. Much like an elaborate dream, leaving the composer as astounded as a dreamer might be at the uncanny intricacies of a dream just dreamt.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
we sometimes "hear" something that isn't what was played...

I don't understand. Do you mean an hallucination?

Oh now I know what you mean. I'm sorry I was thinking as a composer.

Yes. As I stated earlier music as an art form is the synthesis of objective and subjective sound..
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 18, 2013 - 12:01am PT
an "illusion"

Yes. And by that you mean the listener hears a combination of harmony , melody, and lyrics and then fashions a subjective response that is as unique as his/her fingerprint.
This is the magical setting that often applies when music is performed.
The audience consists of hundreds, or thousands of these individual responses.
The performer must be cognizant of this and simply do his/her best to produce and manage the actual objective framework that allows the listener to experience both the sound and its internal consequence.

Edit: I'm sorry. By 'illusion ' you were referring to these specific things:

hearing a missing fundamental frequency, given other parts of the harmonic series
Various psychoacoustic tricks of lossy audio compression
Binaural beats
Deutsch's scale illusion
Glissando illusion
Illusory continuity of tones
McGurk effect
Octave illusion/Deutsch's High-Low Illusion
the Shepard tone or scale, and the Deutsch tritone paradox

Perhaps those can be discussed in due course.
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