Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 3, 2013 - 08:18am PT
1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment...

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

...our faith in Christ will not disappoint!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 3, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
^^^^ THE GREATEST TRUTH EVER TOLD!

because the Spirit is truth.

I hope and pray everyday that all you smart people come to this realization soon..

This Truth NEVER changes. NEVER fluctuates. NEVER adjusts.
MH2

climber
May 3, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
the electron is a negatively charged, point particle which follows Fermi-Dirac statistics and has a finite mass...



The fewer words it takes to describe a thing, the better.

Reality, consciousness and spirituality are fine things but descriptions of them leave much to be desired.

Thanks anyway to those who attempt to talk about them, here.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 4, 2013 - 12:41am PT
The fewer words it takes to describe a thing, the better.

I agree. When I'm in tune with the Holy Spirit, it starts out with words. But, instantly turns to
moanings of peril to the excitement of orgasim. And back. I've never had the words to describe the dream of tomorrow. But its given me Great comfort in the Truths of yesterdaY.
Without any WORDS
rSin

climber
calif
May 4, 2013 - 01:02am PT
getting off on being afraid to orgasm

thought id heard it all...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 4, 2013 - 01:33am PT

A highly controversial topic is the research which is showing that entheogen stimulated spiritual experiences seem to lie at the center of the main religions. Though of course hidden, sometimes even in plain sight, and only allowed for a select group of initiates. Most Christian people refuse to research and debate this topic, because it shows how much the true history behind early Christianity-like gnostic-shamanic cultures has been suppressed and perverted into different forms of mythology, idolatry and dogma.

It shows how much all main religions have strayed from the path of nature, empirical spirituality, honesty and freedom.

Especially entheogen-aware cultures are treated as a huge threat to the dominating 'Western' belief systems, political structures and egoistic/materialistic/mechanical thinking.

These days the Pharmacratic Inquisitions are still going strong to benefit the global toxic-medicine based pharmaceutical industry; using weak medical schooling, medical license systems, patent law, propaganda campaigns and important natural substance prohibitions.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican37.htm
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 4, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
It shows how much all main religions have strayed from the path of nature, empirical spirituality, honesty and freedom.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.


Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



...True Freedom is not freedom to sin, but in the forgiveness that is offered through Christ Jesus!
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 4, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Where you are getting derailed is in ascribing the creative powers to fashion forms to some agency or non-agency "out there"

Yes I am ascribing those powers to the external world. If a form or event impinges on the brain through sensory awareness those forms are , for all intents and purposes ,thoroughly intact and self-contained before and after the sensory process; and are not altered by the mere act of consciousness.

The brain of course must modulate and filter the received stream of data, as I touched on earlier- lest we go mad, and are unable to distinguish between one and another and become overwhelmed with data.
This modulating process was suspected by Kant of having de novo creative powers beyond which he was unable to adequately delineate.
But this modulating and calibrating ,which the brain and the nervous system automatically performs, comes about ex post facto . All the elements that make up an object are already there in the external world : The light reflecting off its surface conveying color, size, dimension, the sound of it movement.
The brain has been formed by evolution according to the blueprint incrementally imposed upon it by the length and breadth of the external world acting upon DNA.
It has been fine tuned to organize that external into aggregates of awareness that can be translated into action based upon the rigid requirements of survival.
The human brain is like a lens that brings the world into sensibly sharp focus. The adjusting and readjusting act of turning the lens ,so that objects are made clearer, does not create those objects . Just ask the nearest photographer.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 4, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Hey Go-B, good to see you, as always.

It is a pretty big step to suggest that consciousness or awareness arises from nothing. "Emergence" is the way you describe it.

We are all born with this ability. Our species has adapted this way. A toddler can learn language faster than any adult. That has been proven.

Our brains continue to grow after birth. I've heard ages tossed around from 16 to 20 years old.

I will believe in this spiritualism when I am confronted either with truth or compelling evidence. Bible passages and meditation won't cut it. To prove something that is this extraordinary, you will need some good evidence. Until that time, I am going to go on trying to live a good moral life.

By the way, when you are presenting an argument, and jump from A to Z, without looking observing the other numbers in the alphabet is called a non sequitur, which is a fancy Latin lawyer phrase meaning "Does not follow." I could also ask about the excluded middle, which is another no-no, or I could also point out cherry picking your information.

These are all basic rules of discourse that keep things on topic, fair, and on track. It works well in politics, because 99.9% of the population doesn't give a sh#t about rhetorical rules or critical thinking.

I know what it is that you are describing, Largo, but here we are several years into this and you flatly refute any statement. I don't do that. I don't have enough confidence to flatly say anything, but if you were looking over my shoulder worked, it would blow your mind. It is all interconnected and very difficult to visualize.

That ability to visualize a problem out of raw data points is mentally very tough. These are all thought experiments, and thought experiments are our form of voodoo consciousness.

Is it like that with you, Ed? Have any of you been thinking about something for maybe five years (of course doing other things at the time) when the lightning strikes. Like I have said, you jot it down before it evaporates like a dream.

Most of them don't pan out, but now and then one does, and it is very cool.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
May 4, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
Morality comes from where?





a physical substance starts a causal chain through chemical reactions that affects the brain through the signaling of neurons and results in a "religious experience" usually described by "subjective" language as originating from the "supernatural" domain...


 Just watched a video this morning that got me to thinking.. Isn't just about everything in this life having to do with chemicals: the air we breath, the water we drink, the food we eat, the keys to the car….. everything…

So then, isn't everything a chemical reaction of one kind or another?

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 4, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
I'm not trying to be a jerk about it. I simply need some compelling evidence.

Give me a miracle. Show me 2 loaves of bread feeding hundreds, with zero trickery.

Same with JL. He still can't explain his ground. Everyone of his posts is a snippet from a prior statement and then saying it is wrong.

If he is that far out there, then he needs to report back in a long and lucid post.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 4, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
But this modulating and calibrating ,which the brain and the nervous system automatically performs, comes about ex post facto . All the elements that make up an object are already there in the external world : The light reflecting off its surface conveying color, size, dimension, the sound of it movement.


Nope, you're still missing it - and this is subtle, and I can tell by your presentational style that you'd bet the farm that you're take on this is inviolate, so it might be hard to see past your blind spot.

Where you loose your way is in assuming that "all the elements that make up an object are already there in the external world." This is true, providing a sentient being has exactly our set of sense organs and physical characteristics and makeup. But consider some other life form which, for example, evolved with a much more porous form and could effortlessly glide through solid rock, or which has no auditory capacities, or sees in a totally different way. Forms that we consider indelibly "out there" like a rock are meaningless to someone who can glide through granite like so many cosmic rays.

But the belief that virtially all objective reality is entirely based on matter (making you a so-called fundamentalist-physicalist) is rampant, especially amongst those whose principal mode of inquiry is measuring, and who quite naturally believe all phenomenon, no matter how qualitatively different than atomic particles themselves, are nonetheless "produced" or created by or are in some wise blow-back from atomic stirrings.

IME, such people have to have profound direct experiences to ever unroot their devotion to fundy physicalism, and lacking same, there is simply no arguing with them on this point because only physical evidence is considered real, hence their closed loop of inquiry.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
May 4, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Please read and spread this fantastic article on "Islamophobia":

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-atheist-muslims-perspective-on-the-root-causes-of-islamist-jihadism-and-the-politics-of-islamophobia_b_3159286.html
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 4, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
If he is that far out there....

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 4, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
Hmmmm.

What shall count as evidence? Only the 5 senses? Must one perceive what exists with their own senses?

All of you are on shaky ground (and I think you know it).
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 4, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
Those who are wishing for participation on this thread of a professional neurophysiologist are unaware of the vast resources that have been poured into this subject throughout our lifetimes behind a veil of top secrecy, due to the overwhelming military and social control implications of the subject. I won't make any claims to professional expertise in this area, other than having been interested in it all my life.

Child development specialists have long considered that it takes an average of seven years for any child to develop the personality that will be theirs for life. So a child exposed to television, computer games, and constant radio and audio electronics is highly impressionable, and susceptible to multiple personality disorder.

Further, the personality of a child less than seven is too fragile to absorb life threatening trauma without reacting in some fashion. Obviously not all children react to early trauma by dissociating, but those who do develop psychological entities which are different than those created at an older age.

So to further explain: in the mind of a person with multiple personality disorder there is a part of the mind that assumes the role of the inter self helper between these multiple personalities. In the younger group, the first entity to dissociate from the birth personality serves the function of this inter self helper, usually based upon whatever the child has been constantly exposed to. You can imagine this personality as a television hero role model, a Disney character, a Pokemon, an anime character, or a religious entity.

The ‘mind’ that is left can be called the original personality. The inter self helper is then the creator of all subsequent alter-personalities, no matter what type. The inter self helper creates them to assure the physical survival of the child, who is known to the inter self helper as his/her “charge". Some adults evolve through phases of creating a series of different role models, such as religious figures, gurus, or scientific role models. And some adults go through their entire lives holding on to an early role model, in the face of any amount of contradictory evidence.

Prior to this first source of inspiration, is the ‘still small voice within’ which I prefer to call the essence of the patient. The inter self helper role is only a temporary job assignment for the essence, which desires to return to an original state of unity within the multiple’s mind.

In the case of the multiple personality disorder, the second dissociate entity to form would be the false-front alter personality, or 'social personality'. This must be created by the inter self helper to replace the original personality which has been deemed by the inter self helper to be too inadequate to stay in social control of the body.

This first false-front is designed and manufactured by the inter self helper to present an image to an abusive adult which will assure survival. It may be made completely compliant, cooperative without crying, and able to absorb abuse without responding angrily. This will be the child the abusive adult can continue to abuse without any adverse reactions being exhibited. This child can then be preprogrammed and triggered as a spy or rock star or assassin or sex toy or any other social role deemed valuable to the handlers.

In other words, if a child’s first major psycho-sexual-physical assault take place before seven years old (impressionistic stage), the birth personality inter self helper acts as a monitor/conductor to split off alternative front personalities (dissociates) according to additional programmed stresses with sufficient trauma to dissociate, each of which are highly hypnotizable.

So when mind-control scientists start working on a child at such a young age, she should be a true multiple personality cyborg. True multiple personality cyborgs are more reliable, malleable and manageable than dissociative identity disorder human cybernetic computer systems. The news is full of the actions of these human manchurian candidates. Their handlers are people whose philosophy justifies any actions in order to further their central control of society.

So the mystery worth discussing here is what happens when the multiple personality disorder cyborg person is provided with an environment where it is safe for them to regain contact with their original personality. It is this original personality that represents the core discussion here, and all the rest is distraction.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 4, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
Same with JL. He still can't explain his ground.


Not true. John has continually said that everything that exists, exists in his consciousness. That includes objectivity. Nothing exists outside of consciousness. If it does, how could one possibly know for sure?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 4, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
^^^^^

No, Ed, you've said so yourself. The results are only provisional, "as if." You know enough to know that no one can prove anything but one thing: I AM. I AM is totally self-evident. The rest is provisional and treated "as if."
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 4, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
Again, what counts as evidence, . . . . . please.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 4, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
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