Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:40am PT
memory has something to do with consciousness?

It sounds like you were conscious for a while after the knock, then may have lost consciousness after getting to the nurse, and the previous minutes never got into long-term memory. There is a guy who has no ability to form new long-term memories. He can be conscious but have no recollection of the recent past. Isn't that what you are describing? Your memories of the date and locker combination were already in storage, but the time between being on the field and getting to the nurse was lost. That could happen without even ever passing out.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:50am PT
Yoga theory says of course that hearing is the last sense to go,


It's actually sound vibration.

Transcendental sound vibrations are transcendental to gross physical hearing .......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 15, 2013 - 01:19am PT
i never remember being absent minded

Credit: TomCochrane
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Apr 15, 2013 - 09:55am PT
THE CLAIMS OF JESUS
(Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee, http://www.ttb.org/);

Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire...

...Turn-eth unto Jesus and be thou saveth!
For ye doeth not want-eth to be cast-eth unto that Jacuzzi!
MH2

climber
Apr 15, 2013 - 10:51am PT
I didn't remember my combo... which tipped the good Coach Kaiser off that I wasn't "in my right mind"


In the spirit of facile long-distance retrograde explanations, perhaps a knock on the head discombobulated your alien implant. Or you hit the opposing lineman hard enough to dislodge his disguise and had to look at the red light.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 15, 2013 - 11:32am PT
For anything to be said to exist IN the universe, there needs to be perception (a process), a perceiver (an agency that's perceiving), and some thing that's perceived (the thing or object).

What? We learn about new things in the universe all of the time. 2000 years ago, nobody knew about gamma or x-rays. They existed even though there was no "perceiver."

The existence of things is totally independent from the observer. I know that somebody will toss Schrodinger's cat out, but for all practical purposes, if nobody is around when a tree falls, there still IS a lot of noise.

Every microsecond of our lives, we and everything around us is pierced by radiation of some sort. Neutrino's can travel through the earth.

If nobody is in the forest, the tree still makes a sound. The universe does not exist solely for us as individuals. Anthropocentric notions are usually a load of crap and a waste of time.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2013 - 11:49am PT
The universe does not exist solely for us as individuals.

Then what is there for?

Every living entity down to the single cell is living in the universe and is an individual.

The universe is full of "Life"

Without "Life" there's no universe.

So your statement is completely untrue .....
jstan

climber
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
I wonder. Did the interest in philosophy in Greece help bring Greece's classic period to its early demise?
MH2

climber
Apr 15, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
The traditional disputes of philosophers are, for the most part, as unwarranted as they are unfruitful. The surest way to end them is to establish beyond question what should be the purpose and method of philosophical inquiry. And this is by no means so difficult a task as the history of philosophy would lead one to suppose. For if there are any questions which science leaves it to philosophy to answer, a straightforward process of elimination must lead to their discovery.


The opening sentence of Language, Truth and Logic by A.J. Ayers (1936)

He should have left it at that.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 15, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Base:

All beliefs . . . which you (and 99.99999% of the earth's population) hold to be true. Unfortunately, 100% consensus would not make any thing true.

I know this declaration isn't very helpful.

I claim reality is unpatterned, ungraspable, undefinable, infinite, non-repeating, indescribable, etc. That is not saying anything about truth.

Do you think that there is such a thing as truth? It seems to me that truth must be absolute, QED.

What is absolutely, unequivocally, no-fricking-way could it be false, TRUE? You willing to say that about any of the *things* you made reference to?


Ed:

The whole thing about patentable human genes is perhaps absurdity taken to a new level of weirdness for me. Consensually (or by royal fiat), we make laws, and then we use those laws to grant ownership over reality. (Sheesh.)

Hell, I'm arriving at a place where I don't even think"doer'ship" exists. I look in the mirror or watch my behaviors in realtime and can't even say who or what I am anymore, just like in some of the Zen stories we're all heard about: "Who are you?" asked the king of the Zen Master; "I don't know," he responded. (That's not just a clever story; it may well be an indication of some kind of awakening.)






EDIT: Er, . . . I did not just claim I am awakened. I'm just noticing weirdness.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Just been reading how Voltaire took the 1755 Lisbon Earthquake and Tsunami
to be the refutation of Leibniz' theory of optimism and how he wrote
Candide to basically establish the French raison d'etre - carpe diem,
baby, cause it's all ya got! ;-)

I tend toward Janis Joplin's view of philosophy:

"People ask a lot of fukking questions."
MH2

climber
Apr 15, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
"People ask a lot of fukking questions."


Guess they are curious about fukking.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 15, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
I hope to take a crack at Ed's interesting questions, which recall echos of said humonculus, "the little man inside the brain" who is watching, and is conscious or itself watching. Not so when Ed sleep walks after too much port or gets brained by rockfall while leading Cream with two cams. However you shake it, that observer is totally ungraspable but the scenarios Ed raised led into some interesting terrain.


BASE wrote: The existence of things is totally independent from the observer. I know that somebody will toss Schrodinger's cat out, but for all practical purposes, if nobody is around when a tree falls, there still IS a lot of noise.

What would "sound" mean if there were no biological things with auditory facilities? You have the whole process reversed. The objective and objective are indivisible. Neither exists without the other.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 15, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
(MH2, you crack me up.)
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
The objective and objective are indivisible. Neither exists without the other

Profound.

When I reflect upon the experiences I had years ago with the apparent separation of I-consciousness from physical body I can find no conflict. My experiential, mystical, or supernatural adventures did not conflict with any sort of scientific approach I might have made. The science might eventually describe the electrochemical phenomena, but that in no way would diminish my feelings and recollections. Why argue? Two sides of the same coin.

If anything, I believe the soul, if it exists, is the complex interaction that underlies personality, and not simply an excess of physical energy that is to be expended. And I suspect the soul vanishes as does the personality upon death (but hopefully I'm wrong, go-be!)
MH2

climber
Apr 15, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
The science might eventually describe the electrochemical phenomena, but that in no way would diminish my feelings and recollections.


Yes!

Scientific understanding and living life raw is not an either/or choice.

I would add, though, that physics finding out that we can't travel faster than light diminishes my enthusiasm for interstellar travel.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
And I suspect the soul vanishes as does the personality upon death


The soul is eternal and part parcel of God.

It never loses it's individuality.

It has all qualities but not the quantity of God.

Although the mayavadi impersonalist school of Sankaracarya will say the soul merges back into impersonal brahmajyoti and loses it's individuality and personality.

But we see even here in gross materialism complete individuality is maintained.

But even Sankaracarya in the end proclaimed this as false and he was forced to mislead the impersonalists because they so desired such nonsense.

Whatever one desires must ultimately be awarded even if if it causes pain.

For without pain one will never come to truth ......
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 15, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
Jogill, Nice post.

The science might eventually describe the electrochemical phenomena, but that in no way would diminish my feelings and recollections. Why argue?

I thought that was the arguement of this thread? I for one am a poor excuse for a arguementor. But I have tried to express with my logical mind. What I believe to be my
ONLY true "TRUTHS" are in fact my recolected emotions from prior experience.
My memory of climbing The Nose is True. But having to use aid techniques makes it
contrived and wishy-washy to the touron bystander. But the plethora of arising emotions
constituted from my physical prowess were epitomized by reaching the summit.
(I'm stretch'in it using all those big words). Truth? I could say Stoveleggs is a good handcrack! But its my greedy smile that makes it MY truth <(underlined).
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 15, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
Credit: TomCochrane
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