Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
To continue the story of my spiritual path from the 80s to now. It does deal with enlightenment.
At this time, I had questions, and was starting to use critical thinking about these issues.

So I'm studying religions, and the end game is supposedly enlightenment, so why not study enlightenment directly, right? to find out more about it.

So I check into it, and what do you know, It is questionable if it Even exists!!!
You would think if it was the goal of all humanity, people would be achieving it on a regular basis, and least there would some one to talk to and study.
It turns out that no one can confirm if they are enlightened or not, there are no ready available examples, there are no studies, some people may say they are, but are they?
I've read quite a bit from people that say they are, but are they?, from their books, they seem normal, not ego-less, there was no great change or manifestation that took place. They are just more peaceful, and have little or no desire.
But they also live in a Monastery, live a sheltered boring life of meditation, chanting and rice. Do I want that? hell no.

The enlightenement they achieved wasn't really the end, everything is still the same for them on the outside, they don't have all the knowledge of the universe at their finger tips, they don't talk to god, they can't levitate, they still want sex.

So since enlightenment is not really the goal in life, and there is no end game, life has no purpose, you can see why I have no interest in going along with JL on his spiritual path.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 28, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
Thanks Dr. F. Now I have a question for you. Did you ever study under a so called master and if so which one(s). Also, have you studied the lives of any of the masters - not all of whom live in monastaries? Thanks.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
No. I never studied under a master.
I read what the masters had to say.

I took some meditation lessons at some New Age fair or something a couple times, but I learned to do it mostly myself, from books and talking to other folks about it.
Just like how I learned to climb, do 5.12+ cactus, and tele ski 5.12b chutes
and how I learned to do my job as an Air Pollution Chemist.
There were no masters that I studied under.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 29, 2013 - 12:03am PT
How about this, Craig. I have a friend, a Zen master up in Idylwild. He runs the Mountain Zen Center. He's British and you'll have no problem understanding him and he'll have all kinds of funny things to say to you when you inform him that he's entirely delusional about his life and his practice following others who have been entirely delusional for going on 2,500 years.

If you agree to go to a seshin up there, an intense 7 day retreat where you do nothing but sit in zazen, and have interviews with the teacher, and otherwise do not talk at all, I will pay for it.

I guarantee he will not bite you or try and cajole you into a cult.

Here's a few informal words from him (Charles Tenshin Fletcher) from a few weeks ago:

http://ec.libsyn.com/p/b/d/8/bd87a527e08166c2/The_Kitchen_Pantry_and_the_Main_Gateway.mp3?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d01ce8035d0ca5caa2a&c_id=5543124

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2013 - 12:17am PT
We were all deusional about the earth being flat or that demons cause sickness for 100s of thousands of years,
The years being delusional don't really matter, now do they.

Thanks, But no thanks, I think my time will be better spent doing the Flower of High Rank and Super Pooper.
Or maybe even better would me staying home and hangin with my cactus.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 29, 2013 - 01:00am PT
How do u guys even define enlightenment? Or describe it ?
The way you guys have been talking, you don't even know what enlightenment means to an individual.

I gathered inlightenment to mean, when you live your life a certain way because of what you believe; and then you learn a truth to curb your believe enough to change your behavior. THAT'S ENLIGHTENMENT !

Back to language..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 29, 2013 - 01:07am PT
There's been some real honest language going on hear, and I applaud it!!!
I'm sorry some have dropped out because it's "wierd". That's to bad !!
Their the ones that really need it!!!
But to those that are steadfast, your enlightenment is coming quick!!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 29, 2013 - 01:15am PT
Drf
No. I never studied under a master.

Yea, and you've never studied the Bible from a master.
And ur certainly not a 5.12 Bible thumper.
Yet you still have a large negative voice against it?
What gives?????
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Apr 29, 2013 - 10:24am PT
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Luke 3: 22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

John 4:25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

...are you just killing time or living for eternity!
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
How do u guys even define enlightenment? Or describe it ?
BB

Good question.
But it's not what you have described

It is what the Buddha achieved, as we are told in the traditions

there are others that say they have achieved the state of enlightenment.
The question is, is it real?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 29, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
You should try it sometime for about a half an hour (sitting in the pitch dark with your eyes open). It's a good contemplation practice used by Dzogchen. I use it myself sometimes.

Tell me if you can figure out what's going on.

Have done it lots, was surprised to find there was a name for it. Best place is deep in a cave, no sounds either except maybe an occasional drip of water, and your own breathing and pulse, and tinnitus of course.

As far as what's going on? The article is vague, but essentially sensory deprivation falls into the "nature abhors a vacuum" phenomena. And so, the idea behind the post was a possibility that this so-called nothingness Largo is so very fond of might be just the same, not really nothingness at all, but rather a construct superimposed by deprived neurons, in fact, something.

Twenty five bazillion years of tradition might say otherwise, of course.
rrider

climber
Mckinleyville, Ca
Apr 29, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
not trying to be any thing here. its just old tv.

I strive for no thing:
http://youtu.be/PrWUxfaizms

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 30, 2013 - 12:19am PT
So what does everyone think about mental illness? Does it exist, or is it some sort of fabrication?


this is a very misunderstood subject, both in societies at large and within professions that supposedly make a science of the subject

i will not claim any particular level of expertise, but will relate some personal observations and opinions

there is no normal

people see things differently, sometimes as large or small groups, sometimes unique to an individual

people who think differently or outside the box are often declared to be insane, both by common idiots and by credentialed professionals

someone viewing things differently from their peers is not mentally ill, simply seeing aspects of reality not seen by some others, or relating what they see to their own unique world view

those who are the least secure in their view of reality are those who are the most uncomfortable with these alternate views and the most critical of others

i tend to have a high respect and tolerance for alternative views, which makes me safe to talk to and means people tell me all sorts of unusual things they have seen and experienced

i have previously mentioned an interesting neurophysiology book that became very popular among my AI colleagues: The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat: And Other Clinical Tales [Oliver Sacks, Jonathan Davis]

since my professional expertise relates primarily to thinking outside the box, i am personally familiar with this phenomena among people, even (gasp!)here among friends on SuperTopo...

i have had opportunities to talk to people who were declared deeply mentally ill...my experiences have been that their view of reality tends to have an internal coherence that makes sense to themselves even when others think they are completely nuts

of course we don't have anyone like that here...

;-0

Quokkas, the happiest critters?
Quokkas, the happiest critters?
Credit: TomCochrane

in my opinion the real definition of insanity is someone who seeks to destroy or harm others...generally motivated by having themselves been damaged or harmed by others...so this is a contagious phenomena...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 30, 2013 - 02:50am PT
this thread exhibits a lot of intelligent discourse, without really shedding much light into areas beyond what humans generally are encouraged to accept in our societies



scientific exploration is quite capable of dramatically furthering understanding by exploration of fields, i.e. gravitational, electromagnetic, and unnamed...or rather perhaps misnamed...(as in the thread title)

Credit: TomCochrane

note that his research was shut down by j p morgan

there is a big problem with this domain of understanding in a slave-master society: deep knowledge undermines centralized control and monopolistic economics based upon 'scarce energy' con games

what a tangled web someone is weaving...
what a tangled web someone is weaving...
Credit: TomCochrane
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 30, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
It's funny what those darned scientists will say.


It will remain remarkable, in what ever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world has led to the scientific conclusion that the content of consciousness is the ultimate universal reality. (Eugene Wigner, Nobel prize winner)

Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature because in the last analysis we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve. (Max Planck)


Existence couldn't be weirder. What's external is entangled with what's in our minds. Existence is a product of consciousness. Every thing is completely open and exists as probability until some kind of measurement is made. Nothing (model, framework, belief, concept, etc.) can help determine what existence IS. One comes to the conclusion that even if one knew what existence IS, one couldn't express it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Apr 30, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
Dan Dennett... in conversation with Steven Pinker.

Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking offers seventy-seven of Dennett’s most successful "imagination-extenders and focus-holders" meant to guide you through some of life’s most treacherous subject matter: evolution, meaning, mind, and free will.

http://www.harvard.com/event/daniel_c._dennett/

.....

Ever been to the Great Pyramids?

FYI: 85 percent of the 75% of Egyptians who support Sharia support capital punishment for those who leave the faith.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/04/daily-chart-20?fsrc=scn/tw_ec/sharia_do_like_it

85 per cent. Death to the apostate.

Be the change you seek in the world.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
MIkeL.
I have a question for you
Is this cactus plant and flower real?
Credit: Dr. F.
I can take a picture of it, it can touch it, I can see it, I can ask others if they see it, and if they will describe it for me,
if I pull it out of it's soil and stomp on it it will smash and die, I grew it from a seed, it is one of a kind hybrid, it has a history of posts on the Internet documenting it's existence ??

What gives, is it real or not?
I say it is real,
"I", nor my "mind" doesn't matter in the question if it exists or not IMO.

I don't really get what you're trying to say.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 30, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
"I", nor my "mind" doesn't matter in the question if it exists or not IMO


Do you mean to say that a flower exists separate from the mind that perceives it? Where is that flower?

My sense of this is that you believe that a flower exists exactly how your mind experiences it, say, on some remote area of the Sierras, and if you went there and saw it, you could assume that it existed before you were ever there to witness it. But in fact virtually all the qualities we ascribe to the flower are the product of our sense organs and our mind organizing potentialities into what we call a flower.

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 30, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
Or you can look the flower over, examine it, take notes, compare it with all other flowers, take notes, and figure out how flowers work and why. There is way too much information on flowers to hold in your head, so you write it all down, make sketches, etc.

They are still just as pretty even if you know how they work, and how they have adapted, often to a single insect who pollinates it.

Adaptation is a powerful thing.
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