Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 13, 2013 - 08:50am PT
We aren't even discussing the most obvious example of the emergence of consciousness: birth to about five years old.

For those who haven't had children, the amount of cognitive growth in a young child is staggering.

Some animals are born with everything they need to know hard wired into them. They learn very little. Human infants are born very helpless, and the learning process is amazingly fast. The development of a child is not seen in an adult. Normally, anyway.

Brain development is governed by environment and nurture. I have read "Goodnight Moon" about a thousand times, for instance, at the insistence of the audience, my very young son. I read to him every night for years.

At first he would say "Five more minutes!" He didn't even know what five minutes was, but he had picked it up as a phrase ordering you to not stop. I could read to him for hours.

I also think that you are all being incredibly short sighted by placing Man in some special category. You can study consciousness by observing animals who possess the quality to some extent or other.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 13, 2013 - 09:30am PT
....I'm constantly amazed that you two don't get it, or at least what I've been noodling with... and you keep insisting that what ever that is, it won't work... ok, your respected opinion, and I do respect them, and even glimpse at it myself...


What, exactly, are you saying that "we don't get?"

The age old point is that any "idea" you have about consciousness is NOT IT. It is merely qualia passing before your awareness, like a cloud whipping through the sky. I think where you get hung up, Ed, is in the notion that there is some aspect to the whole shebang that is totally ungraspable. The discursive mind will reject that truth outright. They're MUST be some way to numerically represent "it." Right.

But I would be interested in hearing about what yo believe is totally lost on us, or what we are saying "won't work."

JL
MH2

climber
Apr 13, 2013 - 09:36am PT
The age old point is that any "idea" you have about consciousness is NOT IT.



I will recast that for discussion purposes:

Any "idea" you have about chess is NOT IT.
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2013 - 10:00am PT
Ed is stuck in the prison house of pure matter.

Even a completely gross materialist can see what consciousness is.

It's the source of consciousness that completely baffles the mundane materialist mental speculators .......
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2013 - 10:03am PT
And such fence sitters as cintune still hallucinating with their grasp of simple fundamentals .....
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 13, 2013 - 10:19am PT
Please, sirs, can someone get this dog off my leg?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 13, 2013 - 10:55am PT
When I feel distress, I stop and look at experience purely--at the snap, crackle, and pop of every moment of consciousness. Everything calms down.

That sounds a little like what happens in a super intense experience. Everything in the brain goes onto the back burner while the experience comes forth and totally obliterates thought. It is pure experience and zero thought.

If you think, you stink.

Lots of dead people couldn't stop thinking.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 13, 2013 - 11:33am PT
Base, . . . and you're the guy who wants to know how to meditate? Dude, you're already there. Those moments are all that you ever have.

(Cintune, that was pretty darned funny.)

It's the source of consciousness that completely baffles the mundane materialist mental speculators .......

Me, too. I have a belief, but it's irrelevant. No belief is true.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Apr 13, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
http://www.politicususa.com/calling-newtown-parents-human-shields-rush-limbaugh.html


After Calling Newtown Parents Human Shields, Rush Limbaugh Has Got To Go

By: Jason EasleyApr. 12th, 2013more from Jason Easley

After referring to the parents of Newtown’s 20 murdered children as human shields, it’s time for Rush Limbaugh to go.

Audio via Media Matters:
http://mediamatters.org/video/2013/04/12/limbaugh-democrats-are-using-newtown-parents-as/193608

Transcript via Rush Limbaugh:

LIMBAUGH: Now I got a guy who calls me, “Rush, are they registered lobbyists?”
“Where’s your heart, sir? What do you mean? They’re not lobbying! They’re trying to save other people’s children.” So that’s how it works. It was the president who asked for this mother of a six-year-old who died to do his speech. Senator Richard Blumenthal (Democrat-Connecticut) is using Sandy Hook to raise money in his e-mails. They’re trying to turn the Newtown parents into a dozen Sandy Sheehans in a way. It’s what the Democrats do, folks. They always try to hide their agendas behind women and children, and, most of all, victims. So the Newtown parents are human shields, in a sense.
The Newtown parents are out there to protect the Democrats from any criticism and to shut it down. Pure and simple.


Being controversial is Limbaugh’s gimmick. It is how he stays relevant, but referring to parents who lost their children in a horrific mass shooting as human shields goes too far. It is wrong when Limbaugh does his daily dredging through the pit of racism for ratings. It was wrong when he called Sandra Fluke a slut. Rush Limbaugh is, as a rule of thumb, usually wrong when he opens his mouth.

However, this is a new low even for him.

Since the Republican Party is too weak kneed and gutless to do anything about him, the rest of America has to take a stand. It would be nice to believe that if we ignore Limbaugh he will go away, but the left has been trying this strategy for decades, and the right wing talker’s influence has only grown within the Republican Party.

The advertiser boycott that was ignited by Limbaugh’s slut comments has been hugely successful, but his comments about the Newtown parents should motivate those who believe in decency to redouble their efforts.

Rush Limbaugh has First Amendment rights, but We The People also have the right to refuse to give our business to anyone who advertises on Rush Limbaugh’s show. The advertiser boycott has cost Limbaugh millions, but since he has learned nothing, it looks like it is time for another lesson.



You Limbag republitards need a whole new way of thinking. Painfully outdated is your best argument 'for' this the of ignorance.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are trolling on the wrong Dr. F thread.

Just trying to be helpful.

These threads need a GPS locator.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 13, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
MikeL,

I've tried to explain these types of experiences as something special. Some people never get there. Most people just shut down and wake up when it is over, while others think slowly through it.

When it just washes over you, faster than an orgasm (and not pleasant like an orgasm), all that is left is a raw awareness.

Largo, when I used to watch you guys soloing right behind each other all over Intersection Rock and around the area on a circuit, I have to ask this.

Were you thinking or where you doing?

There is a big difference. When you are leading, you think about the rope and clipping a piece of pro. That stuff gets in the way for me.

I would get that feeling soloing sometimes, and it didn't even have to be particularly hard. Other times we would be chatting away and the climbing was just like making breakfast or something. Automatic.

Doing a long delay BASE jump just hits you like a gigantic magnet just wiped your hard drive. You just do, and you don't have to think. If you are jumping with a buddy, and he tracks right while I track left, that is about the only thing. It really feels like falling. El Cap is so freaking big that it El Cap tower comes up verrrryyy slowly.

With the wingsuits, it must be highly addictive to folks like me who get gratification from those experiences.

I might get scared before or after, but when doing, it is sort of like the mind is downloading pure reality. No thought gets in the way.

I just tried to stop thinking for about five minutes. Couldn't do it.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 13, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
I also don't totally buy this dichotomy of subjective vs objective hard line. Experience itself is a huge topic, and not every one falls into a tidy category.

Thought, experience, action, it all begins and ends in the brain. It all dies with the brain. On that matter, the question is settled for me.

It has nothing to do with the type or quality of the experience, though. That is what is interesting.

Feel free to donate your meat brains to science next week. Let's see how well you do without them.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 13, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
WTF Jinghy? That post is either in the wrong home or needs a good explanation. Nothing that we are discussing is political. It is just nature.

Would someone PLEASE tell me why dolphins don't get to go to heaven, or even why we place our species on a pedestal? The firmament beneath that pedestal is probably pretty shaky.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 13, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
I also think that you are all being incredibly short sighted by placing Man in some special category. You can study consciousness by observing animals who possess the quality to some extent or other.

nice to see some one else agreeing on that crucial point

Cotton Top Tamarins
Cotton Top Tamarins
Credit: TomCochrane

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 13, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
I also think that you are all being incredibly short sighted by placing Man in some special category. You can study consciousness by observing animals who possess the quality to some extent or other.


What's short sighted perhaps is the lack of acknowledging that qualitative differences in consciousness can make the difference between writing sonnets and splitting atoms, and eating leaves and walking around naked. Value judgments like "better" and "special" are very fluid terms.

JL
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 13, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
What's short sighted perhaps is the lack of acknowledging that qualitative differences in consciousness can make the difference between writing sonnets and splitting atoms, and eating leaves and walking around naked. Value judgments like "better" and "special" are very fluid terms.

if you really spend time with some of these other creatures, you will come to understand why they often regard sonnet writers and atom splitters as incredibly lacking in awareness of their surroundings

there are many creatures who are constantly watching humans without themselves ever being seen by a human

when was the last time you saw a weasel? or a fox? or even a deer that didn't intentionally present itself to you?

there is a dramatic awareness differential between tightly focused attention and wide vision awareness

you can see it in their eyes

people whose minds are constantly busy processing interior thoughts tend to lack awareness of their surroundings

witness the dramatic increase in cell phone induced injuries
MH2

climber
Apr 13, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
if you really spend time with some of these other creatures, you will come to understand why they often regard sonnet writers and atom splitters as incredibly lacking in awareness of their surroundings


If I remember rightly it has a lot to do with humans not hearing steps behind them and having no sense of smell.

But the dog may remember Man after he has gone.

The Policeman's Prophecy
Lord Dunsany
MH2

climber
Apr 13, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
What's short sighted perhaps is the lack of acknowledging that qualitative differences in consciousness can make the difference between writing sonnets and splitting atoms, and eating leaves and walking around naked. Value judgments like "better" and "special" are very fluid terms.


Tom may not be using 'special' as a value judgement but rather to mean a thing which is readily distinguishable from other things.
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
The human being is the springboard for further advancement.

The animal is only fixed up in it's nature.

The human being can go up or down in it's evolution according to the consciousness it develops in this life.

When human being only acts in animal consciousness in this life one will fall down and become animal in next life.

Foolish modern so called human rascals think due to poor fund of knowledge there's only one life.

Thus they act like cats, dogs, and monkeys in this life and fall down and are reborn in those animal bodies in their next life.

The human being stage is very rare to come to.

Do not waste it on animal consciousness.

Human beings are meant for knowledge not animalistic consciousness ......
MH2

climber
Apr 13, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Unless the animal is handy at chess.
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