Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
True enough, but you see what you're up against with that analogy, right? If I watch someone flash a 5.12, it's immediately obvious that they've done the work or got the genes for it. But if someone just tells me about what a badass climber they are and explains how hard they train, but I never see any proof, well....

I suppose you could post a video of yourself sitting and achieving whatever inner state, but even that... it's just too subjectively experiential to get across. There were those lamas Alex David-Neel met up with who did the astral flying, snow-melting, bending swords and whatnot for her, a little more on the shamanic side that, but at least it was something to bridge the evidentiary gap.
WBraun

climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
There were those lamas Alex David-Neel met up with who did the astral flying, snow-melting, bending swords and whatnot for

This shows you haven't even the slightest tiniest inkling of what spiritual is at all.

Those events you listed are all material manifestations by manipulating the material energies that modern science has no clue how.

There's many who know how to manipulate the material energy and to the untrained they think it's spiritual.

Thus we continually see your useless running mouth that shows nothing but pure ignorance.

Keep posting all your stupid cartoons and youtube.

That's all you do and know, mūḍha .....

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/space-station-may-test-spooky-entanglement-over-largest-230353588.html

"Spooky" quantum entanglement connects two particles so that actions performed on one reflect on the other. Now, scientists propose testing entanglement over the greatest distance yet via an experiment on the International Space Station.

Until now, entanglement has been established on relatively small scales in labs on Earth. But now physicists propose sending half of an entangled particle pair to the space station, which orbits about 250 miles (400 kilometers) above the planet.

"According to quantum physics, entanglement is independent of distance," physicist Rupert Ursin of the Austrian Academy of Sciences said in a statement. "Our proposed Bell-type experiment will show that particles are entangled, over large distances — around 500 km — for the very first time in an experiment."

Ursin and his colleagues detail the proposed experiment today (April 9) in the Institute of Physics and German Physical Society's New Journal of Physics. [Wacky Physics: The Coolest Little Particles in Nature]
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
This shows you haven't even the slightest tiniest inkling of what spiritual is at all.

Those events you listed are all material manifestations by manipulating the material energies that modern science has no clue how.

There's many who know how to manipulate the material energy and to the untrained they think it's spiritual.

Thus we continually see your useless running mouth that shows nothing but pure ignorance.

Keep posting all your stupid cartoons and youtube.

That's all you do and know, mūḍha .....

Okay, man, thanks for clearing that up.

And you can keep parroting Prabhupada, for all that's worth.
MH2

climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
We can't gather the info and FAX it to someone else to ponder.


Can you specify which info cannot be gathered?

If we go back a ways in time, our ancestors probably did not have speech as we do today. From a person's words, tone of voice, gestures and facial expressions we surely can learn a little of their experience.

More recently we have developed writing, photography, audio recording, and movies. I don't see why future technology could not record and replay the same information your senses pick up.

Text, pictures, and audio today are stored and transmitted as numbers but that has little to do with the feelings they give to an audience. If in the future we can record, transmit, and recreate experiences, you probably won't be any more aware of the underlying quantification than you are when you look at the pictures of Dr. F.'s cacti.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
why can't you fly Werner?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
Many of us have a great deal of experience with this sort of existence, though we might not have embarked on formal study and practice.


Solid post, Ed, IMO. I probably should have rephrased that to say that not many people on this thread appreciate the crucial nature of formal study and practice around established teachers, an attitude downright daffy and incomprehensible in any other walk of life. Whenever we want to know something, we go to the experts. But to many here, me sense of it is that in the experiential realm, all men are equal since all men experience. So what's the dif, right? Cintune wants to see some tangible proof of "attainment," while Craig wants a DVD of God - or ALL spirituality, for all time, is bunkum.

Try this angle per "experts." Experiential arts will typically start with exercises to steady our attention, which tends to wander aimlessly. Try the simple sounding exercise of counting your breath, saying the number with each inhale and each exhale, starting with a new number each exhale. Do this up to, say, 100. Trick: Pull your awareness down into your belly, and away from your head or you'll never get past 20 before a thought yanks you away.

And this is just the kiddy pond stuff.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
perhaps, but I think that most people on this thread are climbers and have worked hard (at times in their lives) to push themselves to their limits in climbing. As we all know, this is not something that can be done very effectively without "putting in the time" and it often places the climber in a situation of experiential immediacy (to coin a term), the meaning being the exclusion of our "normal awareness" into a state of awareness which is a "being, active" state unconnected with internal dialog and intellectualizing. We often feel that "we just do the moves" in that state... perhaps it's described as "flow" but it is a state familiar with climbers.

Interesting point. However, I'm not sure the "experiential" state ,as defined by our resident experientalists, could be purely delineated as merely the absence of intellectualizing, or reflective thought as such.
The type of experience you are describing is, in a very real sense, the more acutely quantified
experience of all.
In a state of danger, challenge, and fear , the human brain is measuring the extraneous world in a highly calculative manner- so much so that the executive function of the brain (the brain that wins Nobel Prizes) can't keep up with the multilevel processing. Intellectualizing is just too non-algorithmic, as a function over time. This does not mean that the brain and nervous system has stopped measuring and quantifying ,as a central- if subliminal- feature of the experience. IMHO



MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Base:

The CEO of Schlumberger (Jean Ribaud) once said in response to vague and sloppy questions about the recent acquisition: "You're an engineer. Be a little more precise . . . ."*


I don't think of my students as investments, nor do I think of any of my nieces and nephews, nor any of my sisters (I the only boy, oldest in a family of ten), or my wife as investments.

I don't exactly know how I see my students, but as investments not. It's just not the right, er . . . idea.

Words do not just communicate. (I'd like you to meet some friends of mine: Foucault, Habermas, Lyotard, among others.)



*(taken from "A Certain Poetry" by Ken Auletta, The New Yorker, 1983; also used by Harvard Business School in published case studies textbooks.)

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Nice opinion Ed!^^^^

the meaning being the exclusion of our "normal awareness" into a state of awareness which is a "being, active". ----Flow

i crave the "flow". Earliest was learning to ride a bike. Then through skateboarding/surfing.
This "flow" really grew and matured through years of Crew. And decades of Climbing.
But none so satisfying as feeling in the flow when I pray and worship.

Can I coin a term, Attitudelessness.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
If I can kibbutz over Ed and Largo's shoulders, I'd add from back here in the cheap seats that these days when I leave one scene (classroom, home, grocery story, office, etc.) and move on to another, I'm increasingly struck with how each scene seems like a completely different world to me. The power of the shifts of context is beyond words.

Flow? Nah . . . multi-dimensional travel. I'm telling you: it happens all the time. TFW. Csíkszentmihályi saw the tip of an iceberg.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
MikeL you must have meant Michel Foucault ?

Did you know Jean Foucault invented the gyroscope?
Did you watch that YouTube upthread about the spinning weight?
I've been trying to figure out if that phenomenon coulda been used to
build the Corral Castle. We've already had some fun playing with this
Weightlessness. My daughter thinks its magic.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
when I leave one scene (classroom, home, grocery story, office, etc.) and move on to another, I'm increasingly struck with how each scene seems like a completely different world to me. The power of the shifts of context is beyond words.

At first I glossed over this statement, but then later it seemed to take on a deeper significance as regards basic consciousness.
The two factors described in your experience are the usual suspects, namely:

A) your internal sense of self as distinct from the outer world of home, store, classroom.
B) the outer world of home , office, classroom.

What you are saying here is that B. , defined as these distinct adaptions of your surface mind ,takes precedence over A. to the extent that your deeper internal self is completely submerged against the sturm und drang of sequentially escalating compartmentalized outer stage settings?
Shakespeare had something to say about this.

Maybe Dostoevsky too. LOL.


Jaques:
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.

As You Like It Act 2, scene 7, 139–143

Marshall McCluhan always deferred to Shakespeare when it came to lyrical descriptions of that part of functioning consciousness tied to major shifts in the ratio of our sense perceptions.
Artists seem to detect these shifts before anyone else. It's a non-intellectual ,sensory detection.
McCluhan would have , and perhaps actually did, identify the above Shakespearian lines as illustrating the fragmented , discontinuous, linear nature of industrial western culture in the centuries leading up to electronic media.
In the 19th century , typographical man could act without reacting.
In the 21st century digital man's action is his immediate reaction.
Human culture was in the process of being transformed from the linear to the global.
From the fragmented assembly line to the instantaneously integrated mosaic.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:55am PT
Interesting point. However, I'm not sure the "experiential" state ,as defined by our resident experientalists, could be purely delineated as merely the absence of intellectualizing, or reflective thought as such.
-


There's many ways to skin a cat. For instance, on Monday nights I go to a sangha called "Against the Stream," which is full of tattooed young dudes, mostly former addicts who became serious students of Jack Kornfield back in the 80s and early 90s and have become pretty accomplished Vapassana (insight meditations) teachers. Vapassana is very counter to the formal and highly ritualized Zen practice I normally encounter. Strange thing is that Zen practice - koan study notwithstanding - is largely unstructured and as such is so nebulous that few make real headway. The concentration exercises (breath counting, sensation tracking, etc) of Vapassana are very helpful in this regards to ground your attention so when you go to the more advanced and nebulous practices of no-mind, of NOT concentrating, and holding an open focus, the mind doesn't once more yank you into it's involuntary tidal drift.

So yeah, there a lot more going on besides detaching from the discursive mind. That's just the start of it.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:32am PT
Blast from the past...

re: on killing people “for what they believe”

"The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas."

.....

Here you go, BASE...
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Hoax



;>{
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
10 million a year salary for the preacher man?? For real?

For the love of Baby Jesus, I gots to get me some religion. Like yesterday.

JL

jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 9, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
. . . you go to the more advanced and nebulous practices of no-mind, of NOT concentrating, and holding an open focus, the mind doesn't once more yank you into it's involuntary tidal drift. So yeah, there a lot more going on besides detaching from the discursive mind. That's just the start of it

Interesting, but I guess I don't really see the point. Is the quest of nothingness a study of quixotic dimensions, or does it truly make life more worthwhile after its attainment? I've never had a problem with "involuntary tidal drift" having picked up fairly quickly "mind as a mirror" over fifty years ago.

Why do so many paths of enlightenment - mental or physical like climbing - seem to require instructors, coaches, fitness consultants, etc. these days?
Is this trend simply the result of high unemployment promoting new vocational avenues, or is there something basic that's missing in the human personality? Something that previous generations managed to handle on their own. I would not have gotten into climbing if it was as structured back then as it is today. I saw it as a path of individual accomplishment, tempered by a bit of advice from practitioners here and there.

I agree with Ed concerning the experiential factor in climbing if we have been at it long enough. No one needs to "lead" us along paths of enlightenment. For years I practised bouldering as a moving meditation - one that was perfectly natural and needed no guru.

It's true that the sciences need the guidance of good instructors. I can only think of one mathematician off hand who made considerable progress on his own: Ramanujan. And that was long ago. But to state the absolute necessity of teachers and gurus and disciplined instruction for an extended journey into nothingness doesn't make a lot of "rational sense."

Maybe these practices originated in dense populations where privacy was at a premium. Jan might be able to tell us about this.
WBraun

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
No one needs to "lead" us along paths of enlightenment.

Yeah .... just do anything you want and make up a bunch sh!t and pass it off as authorized and then mislead and kill people in the process.

This is the western way?

if such were true then any idiot can become instructor.

Any idiot can learn all by himself.

Why bother even having education to begin with if such nonsense statement as below holds true.

Destroy all schools now!!!

No one needs to "lead" us along paths of enlightenment.


But it isn't true.

Knowledge has and comes from root, life.

Not that any rascal makes up some stuff and makes claims.

Higher knowledge is still scientific in its root, always.

The scientific process is eternal ......


Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
But to state the absolute necessity of teachers and gurus and disciplined instruction for an extended journey into nothingness doesn't make a lot of "rational sense."



Gurus are not part of what I am suggesting. Experts are. One can look at this as you look at any other skill - you simply want to recruit the best talent out there since the going is slippery to begin with. If you are satisfied with your results on your own, that's great. No need to go further.

It's helpful to clearly state your goals when undertaking the "work" so you understand your motivations. Any opinions you might have before getting started are bound to burn up in the fire that follows - that's the only certain thing because none of us ever know beforehand what the whole thing is really about.

Why people have an aversion to seeking experts in this work is, in my experience, based on misperceptions about what the work actually is. It isn't about anything - which indeed makes no "rational sense."

JL
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