Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 2, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
In the same sence that our discursive minds can’t get “its arms” around anything truly boundless, the machinery of logical and mathematical reasoning also seems to break down when applied to infinity. For instance, the cardinality (size) of all infinite sets is the same, regardless of how those sets are defined

JL, this is what happens when you, once again, wander confidently into areas where you have scant knowledge. The statement underlined above is exquisitely wrong!

Whereas the rational numbers have the same cardinality as the counting numbers, such is not the case with the irrational numbers, like the square root of two. Georg Cantor proved many years ago that the irrationals cannot be counted, and his argument is a delightful excursion into the world of reason.

Here's a scenario: Many moons ago philosophers were perplexed by the seeming "paradox" of a proper subset of an infinite set being in one-to-one correspondence with the larger set. Mathematicians and scientists moved on, absorbing these seeming anomolies with a broader application of logic. Others decided it was all too much and sought to turn off that annoying instrument in our heads and descend into the vacuum of emptyness.
I guess that's where you have gone.

I work with infinities constantly in mathematics, my area being complex analysis. My playthings, zeno contours, are the concrete results of extensions into the infinite. They are sequences of sequences, where in the limit as the number of subdivisions of an interval of time becomes infinite, they result in a kind of extension of the notion of sequence where there is no well-defined second term. The discrete merges into the continuous. This doesn't perplex me - it delights me. I am very comfortable with infinities.

You should not assume all scientists - or even the majority - reject the infinite or the continuous in physical reality. There are physicists who remain supporters of time being continuous rather than discrete, as there are physicists who place more confidence in the discrete. Ed knows a lot more about this than either you, JL, or me.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 2, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I look at this as a kind of trance state, a kind of cult of mind which will never let the subject escape till death do we part.

Oh for crying out loud. How absurd.
In many of my posts I have outlined the biological basis for the kind of thinking you are referring to and are critical of.
Human beings did not survive lions and tigers and starvation because they were able to instantly submerge themselves in a highly rarefied experiential state.
They did so because of measuring , calculating, forethought, and the cognitive ability to abstract out of the storm of sensory input a raging set of frothing incisors directed at the throat and the best way to deal with such a threat.
To effectively meet the real challenges of survival humans evolved higher reasoning talents and capacities that are the direct forerunners of empirical thought used today to cure polio and put man on the moon and discover the age of the universe.
This is not something bizarre or cultish. It lies at the very heart of human nature, history, and experience.

Geez Louise.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 2, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
John, the quote I cited above was from a mamtematician at Caltec - it is not my "knowledge," and you know as well as I do that he was not talking about irrational numbers. Any point can be refuted if that's what you want to do. The exaamples were to see if you could possibly gt a glimpse past the rational mind. Not only does it appear that yu cannot, by dint of my ppoor examples, but that you consider it a kind of affront to even consider such a tack has any possible viability in the real world. This is the cult of rationality I was speaking about, where the person is so enmeshed by a sub-personality they can't see it's limitiations, and then they place virtue on top of being enmeshed. Such are the wiles the rational mind. I said it was jealous, and there you have it.

The importat thing is that efforts to try and reflect my thinking as a kind of backwards prehistoric dream state as opposed to all-mighty reason are not, in fact, EVER backed up by your own experince of how we all actually live out lives. The cult of mind is not a cult of reason, it is the trance we live in till we can clearly see that discursive reasoning is limited.

I mentiond a higher level of knowing than mere discursive info, and this was quite naturally illreceived. Look at it this way, because this is how we all naturally live our lives. For instance, you might give me a binder containing 1 million pages of facts and figures on a woman named Roxanne, and every single fact has been backed up with empirical evidence and field tested in every way imaginable so the 1,000,000 pages of information is indisputable. From this million pages of quantified info we can know "everything" about this woman. Really? We all know this is entirely wrong. Or if you believe it is corect, you couldn't get laid wih a thousand dollar bill. To know Roxanne, you need direct experience over a long period of time, so yu can fil in the gaps that the figures did not provide, and see what her patterns are like per changing, which we all do. Same with a climb. You could read a 10,000 page description of a given route but when you dirctly experince it, you intake said climb by not only your discursive mind, but all of your other facilities, and you come to know it in a muck higher and more comprehensive way.

Even if we're talking about someone painting you house, the man who has memorized all the fact and figures about paintin is not our. We want the man who's painted 1,000 houses, who has tons of first hand experience with the work, who "knows" what they are doing, not just the data on what constitutes a good job.

And when it come to investigating Mind, we need tons of dirction experience WITH Mind, not extruded through our discursive mind, which will always give us a diced up version or a piece of the whole. You can knock my metaphors (math, etc), but this much remains indisputable.


I have tried to use language that would speak to this crowd but the process so far has been to be reminded abotu how little i know. So I'll abandon that tact and use language that is right in my wheelhouse.

For those to whom separating from the primary self of the rational mind feels impossible or even undesirable, glance over this material and you should get a little clarity on the process:

http://delos-inc.com/pdf/The_Basic_Elements_Of_Voice_Dialogue_Relationship_And_The_Psychology_Of_Selves.pdf


JL
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 2, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
John, the quote I cited above was from a mamtematician at Caltec - it is not my "knowledge," and you know as well as I do that he was not talking about irrational numbers

I do not. Am I mistaken if I assume you mean what you write?


Stop blaming everyone else. If you were rational when you paraphrased him you would not have blundered. So much for avoiding the cult of reason.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 2, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
The cult of mind is not a cult of reason, it is the trance we live in till we can clearly see that discursive reasoning is limite

The opposite is true as well, namely that non-discursive experience is highly limited.
If you were to take 100 ordinary people randomly and present the case , as in a courtroom ,for and against Largoism: What side do you think would win?

Empiricism: produces protection from predators, adequate shelter, the cause of bubonic plague and hot showers.( to be fair...environmental destruction and the occasional nuke, etc)

Largoesque Subjectivism : uh......uh.... Might represent an interesting departure from ordinary
consciousness. Might even represent a higher form of consciousness one day, but only if we keep our consumption of high carb discursive thinking in check.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 2, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
Anyone out there have any thoughts on the general effects that digital technologies are having on art, entertainment , and news?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 2, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 2, 2013 - 08:57pm PT

Briefly, the discursive mind gathers and interprets information through the senses.

It is the most immediate experience of mind—the busy, thinking aspect of mind that is also responsible for creativity, imagination, fantasy and dream states. The intelligent mind is concerned primarily with reason and rationality, discriminating between pieces of information. Here, reason is the process of producing one or more arguments to logically explain something observed; its rationality either accepts or rejects these arguments by testing them against a broader base of information and experience.

The heart mind, or the emotional mind, is chiefly concerned with memory and knowledge, creating the contexts and parameters within which the intelligent mind operates. Within the heart mind, knowledge is the ultimate union of information, reason, and discrimination or, more philosophically, the unification of the knower, the knowing, and the known. The ego mind, lastly, uses personal knowledge to form an individual’s perception of a unique and independent identity—a self with will.

The four-part subtle mind demonstrates how the mind is shaped from experience and helps contribute to an understanding of the search for meaning, but it explains neither the origin of consciousness, nor the nature of the intelligent mind, nor the process of the heart mind. However, this understanding of the subtle mind provides two distinct approaches to the search for meaning. First, life has meaning when it “makes sense,” in other words, when the bases for meaning are derived in epistemological and empirical knowledge. Second, life has meaning when it “feels right,” when meaning is found through idealistic and metaphysical systems.
http://www.hektoeninternational.org/Meaning_Cognitive_Default.html
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 2, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Anyone out there have any thoughts on the general effects that digital technologies are having on art, entertainment , and news?

One is truly never alone.

When computer graphics were introduced I was delighted with the special effects in movies. Now I find the cacophony of images and sounds unpleasant and many times boring as well.

The young seem to be developing shorter attention spans, which bodes ill for the sciences. Of course the really smart kids who have an interest will always do well. Instant and constant communication is a sword having two edges.

just idle thoughts . . .

Re Norton:

Understanding the entirety of consciousness requires a new mode of acquiring knowledge, for instance, through the exploration of a natural, non-physical field—if only to offer a better approximation within the minds’ symbolism


Hmmmmm . . .
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 2, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
The young seem to be developing shorter attention spans, which bodes ill for the sciences. Of course the really smart kids who have an interest will always do well. Instant and constant communication is a sword having two edges.

I have been thinking a lot of late on the idea that social forms like art and entertainment are undergoing a tremendous shift in significance, especially as carriers of commonly shared ideals and collective norms.
With social media of various sorts (ST) it appears that we are entertaining ourselves. Could this be a major down- shift in the need for professional entertainment as hitherto constituted?
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 2, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
womens shorter attention spans and addiction to hook up apps are
probably a sign from god. But whats he trying to tell us?



MH2

climber
Jun 3, 2013 - 12:09am PT
The end is near.
WBraun

climber
Jun 3, 2013 - 01:05am PT
It has been said and is verifiable and everyone knows it.

The senses are defective.

One who gathers information only thru the senses will ultimately be mislead and bewildered.

Thus the materialists are ultimately always wrong in the end result to the end of the unmanifested.

The gross materialists are all under the control of their run away senses.

And at the same time foolishly believing they are in control.

Thus they remain perpetually bewildered all while expounding their limited incomplete knowledge and misleading each other down the drain ......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 3, 2013 - 01:06am PT
I'm actually more interested in the process rather than the end state...

the process seems to be important, Largo has scolded me that I haven't practiced meditation seriously for many years and therefore couldn't possibly understand it....

but that is a practice of a process

it would seem that that is a very physical, causal procedure, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems rather specific and involved...

so Largo is saying there is a causal link that the process takes us from our usual state to this state of "no thing"

how does that happen?


It happens in stages, IME.

Did you understand the explanation I used with how the discrsive mind narrow focuses on whatever we are working on? Did you check your own process on how this is so?

The first part of the process it to keep the aperature open.

And really Ed, John can say I haven't studied mathematics for years under many various masters and therefore I don't understand squat about it - which I don't, but when I insist that you simply cannot investigage mind in the round discursively at any depth, and that this is NOT a theory, this is suddenly crazy talk. Such quips make it progressively harder to take your inquiry seriously, when sarcasm replaces even the febelest efforts to learn something new.

Did you take even one moment to investigate that information about separating from your primnary selves as clearly stated in the Delos material?

To what extent are you willing to go to fill in the gaps? Can you see the unconscious terror or leaving the discursive mind, even for a minute, without reams of excuses and evidence that you'll survive the trauma and that it will be worth it. Try and ease just an inch out of your cognitive comfort zone. We're not children here, and I'm not talknig about any boogy man, God, beliefs, JUJU or anyting. I'm just saying, ease away from a part of your mind and see for yourself.

JL

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 3, 2013 - 02:12am PT

it would seem that that is a very physical, causal procedure, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems rather specific and involved...

The whole picture Largo painted for me, reminds me a lot like the meditative state I inhibit when I'm climbing..
Sure, when I was first learning I was all in awe playing with the gear. But after I knew what I was doing. Soon as I would tie into the sharpend, the world would become translucent and I would lock into a world of flow. Movement and strength, flowing, unthinkingly. I can't remember any one single move while climbing The Narrows. The whole pitch was like a whole body pressure, tension test (minus the head). If I could'of stood outside of my body and looked around and saw where I was at and what I was doing. I prolly would'of shite myself.
But inside I stayed in my "no-thing"-ness, and just "felt" myself thru the horror.

Could it be Largos mindless "no-thing", has something to do in the body's achievement of "nothing"?

Largo, what is your body DOING when ur mind is meditating? What's ur posit-ion?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 3, 2013 - 06:57am PT
The importance of position while meditating is one I've thought a lot about since I started with Zen and they are so strict on posture. Later, other groups, both Hindu and Buddhist, said you need to keep your spine straight, but you can do that in a chair. Still later, I figured out that lots of Christians get the same effect while kneeling or in the case of some, standing. I suspect one of the reasons climbing is effective is that it's mostly done with a straight back. Lying down by contrast seems mainly effective for out of body states.

All this gets us back of course to the question of how the meditating mind is tied to the autonomic nervous system somehow, all the way to the base of the spine.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 3, 2013 - 11:25am PT


Shopped, but cute.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 3, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
general effects that digital technologies are having on art, entertainment, and news?

I'd second the idea that we're never alone. We're expected to be on call and available, by numerous means, all the time. In the city you see half the people walking around are staring at their phone.

On facebook you can choose who are your friends, who shows up in your news feed, and who is ok to have as a friend but you don't want all their news all the time. After filtering this info, I end up with a news feed of articles from people I've selected (and unselected) who have similar interests and views.

The other way I stay informed is to read the news by searching for keywords in google news. You get a general idea what's going on from headlines, then research the stories by searching for keywords that show that the author knows what's going on. ie, you read a story and it leaves an obvious question in your mind, then you put in the key words to see if anyone has answered it. If I find something really good I post it to facebook, but am careful not to post too many things.

All this is far more interactive than TV and newspapers, and allows you to take control rather than being a passive absorber of information deemed to be of general interest to the public by news editors. Many people have misconceptions about the news industry, that they have a duty to inform the public about something. They don't. They are businesses that sell a product to an audience, and each crafts an image of itself that's supposed to appeal to a certain demographic. If a story would offend those readers, it's not going to be in the news.

That's a longer response than I intended but the internet is certainly the most important innovation I've seen in my lifetime. I just wish there was a way to keep facebook from mixing deceptive ads into my newsfeed, that's designed to look like news. What would be really amazing is if doj would bring an antitrust case against them, so facebook could be opened up to competition.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jun 3, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
reminds me a lot like the meditative state I inhibit when I'm climbing..

Inhibit, heh.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 3, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
general effects that digital technologies are having on art, entertainment, and news?

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