Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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jogill

climber
Colorado
May 31, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
I think Largo is doing something similar as far as leaving the known world. It may just be that he doesn't get anywhere and isn't interested in getting anywhere in the process

JL is indeed a man of mystery who tantalizes us with clues . . .
MH2

climber
May 31, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
thinking over a math problem is also a process
that process also ends up in some state







and a little humor pointed at this thread

bc

climber
Prescott, AZ
May 31, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
...mediation is a process,
that process ends up in some state, you can call it what you want

thinking over a math problem is also a process
that process also ends up in some state

what differentiates the states?

I'll guess - no-thing?

Actually, I was thinking you could substitute the words "math" and "meditation" with "climbing". Or add the word, as in...

jogill can testify that often when you're working a (climbing) problem you are in a world quite different from the "normal conscious" world...

Altered states.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 1, 2013 - 12:18am PT
I'll state again that the various meditation systems of several world religions, with the encouragement of the Dalai Lama, have set a goal of coming up with a unified description and vocabulary for every altered state of mind documented in their various traditions.Whether one of these altered states corelates to the altered state of solving math problems, we simply don't know yet.

I think this is where brain scans would be very useful. So far meditator and charismatic brains have been scanned, but not mathemeticians, so that would be an interesting Ph.D. research project for someone. Perhaps, if they were proved the same, this would create more respect for the meditators. I dare say Dr. F. would never accuse a mathemetician out there in an altered state trying to solve a problem, of being in "a primitive state like a sponge".



MH2

climber
Jun 1, 2013 - 12:45am PT
the whole day might pass with very little or no notice at all...

Here I see some similarity between the mathematician's process and we retirees.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 1, 2013 - 12:46am PT
In regard to the question that Ed asks, Largo and any other meditator is in a mental state, that's for certain. The question is whether that state is merely that state or
enables one to connect with something else in the universe.

Likewise splitter describes phenomena that are real to Christians but also to people of other religions. Everything he describes I have seen experienced by Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, and animists, and have read about in regard to Judaism and Islam. It seems to me then, that these phenomena represent a human potential common to the entire human race. The ultimate question then becomes - are they self produced somehow, or do they represent contact with something in the universe that is way beyond the doctrines of individual religions or their founders?

I have an interesting book from long ago, that Ed might enjoy also, if he hasn't seen it already. It is written by Lawrence LeShan and titled, The Medium, the Mystic, and the Physicist. The last section of the book gives quotes from all three and you have to guess which of the three said it. Of course anyone familiar with physics will probably recognize those but my undergraduate students in comparative religion classes did not. Anyone reading those quotes however, based on that alone, would conclude that the altered state they enter is all the same. It would be nice to have brain scans to confirm it just the same.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 1, 2013 - 01:21am PT
Are ya'll trollin' the Largo-Meister?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 1, 2013 - 01:23am PT

now if meditation gets you to some state, may Largo labels it "no-thing" but actually, it's just a state like any other state... you arrive there by a similar process


What similar process? What you described was a narrow focuse flow state brought on by concentrating on what likely is a world-class logic or math problem. This is likely flexing the discursive mind to it's limits, and no doubt takes a lot of practive, probably a lifetime.

Meditation is mostly the process of detaching from not only the discursive mind, but also feelings, beliefs, thoughts, memories, smells, desires, and so forth and dropping deeper and deeper into the open void of mind itself. The focus is not on any particular state - all states being impermanent - but on the emptiness (no-thing or no-mind) from which all transient states emerge and fall back into. IME, the notion that you could arive here by some cognitive process is a non-starter since symbolic cognition (words, numbers, etc) is what usually stands between us and emptiness.

What IS similar is the momentary transcendence of the "self" or "I" that our egos fashioned for us. We're usually "bound by self," self-absorbed in our own internal process. We the "I" falls away and there is just presence itself, with whatever is going on, the consciousness is clear and pure as a diamond and people often have so-called boundary experiences. Any kind of intense concentration can produce this selfless state and it's a kind of everyman's contact with something greater than himself (his "I"). Not an experience soon forgotten.

But different kind of meditation bring about vastly diferent brain states. I did a bunch of research on this (EEG, neurofedback and qEEG) in grad school and I'll talk abought that sometime soon. It's intresting stuff.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 1, 2013 - 01:39am PT
the notion that you could arive here by some cognitive process is a non-starter since symbolic cognition (words, numbers, etc) is what usually stands between us and emptiness.

So arriving " here" is in every way like arriving anywhere else. The brain's sensory apparatus is made aware not of something , but of nothing. The emptiness is defined by and delineated by the lack of normal cognition and awareness . Without the state of discursive mind there is nothing to compare this other " empty" state to. It is therefore the anti-matter of mind. When normal cognitive states collide with the non- discursive there is mutual annihilation.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 1, 2013 - 02:04am PT
Jingy that was a very, very good question.

God became man for the exclusive reason to be flesh and blood.
Think of blood. Meditate on blood. What is it? Why is it? IT'S NOT ETERNAL.
Before Jesus; god recommended that if we (man) were to wrong our brother, then we were to
make a "blood" sacrifice. Meaning, to stop a blood flow before it s destined extinction. (mostly
in a animal). The reason for this cannot be clarified scientificlly, or philosophically, but maybe
spiritually. God only knows.
But if man had to sacrifice an animal every time he wronged his brother today, ther wouldn't be any more animals. (my thought).
So god became man to be the ultimate sacrifice for all men. Thru out time.
Jesus bleed 7 different ways upon reaching the cross. To cover ALL the ways man can
rage against his brother. And in understanding these differences, one can pray and call upon the Power of the individual characteristics in which Jesus expelled His blood.
I have personally pleaded the blood of Jesus in prayer towards another individual, and have
witnessed drastic changes in their lives. Without ever mentioning anything ever to them personally.
With only having a concious awareness of another's turmoil, i, (or anyone) has the ability
to plead the blood of Jesus to make an action into a positive light.
For us to resurrect the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and to plead His blood is the most powerful power in the universe. And it should not be discussed lightly.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 1, 2013 - 02:07am PT
Ed, I think we are actually on to something now..
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 1, 2013 - 02:19am PT
I think I know what you're talking about Ed as I've experienced something similar to both. In my most recent cases I have been working on complicated abstract puzzles involving Sherpa kinship, linguistics, and DNA. In all three cases when considered separately or apart, I was thinking of them in terms of symbols, colors, and spatial distributions which may be the key.

I run through all the issues with the discursive mind, and then just let my mind "float", often doing a simple rhythmic household chore, or better yet, walking the dogs, trying not to think of anything in particular (a mantra helps me in this situation). Eventually the answer or at least a new conception leaps out at me. Obviously the unconscious mind was hard at work, though I was not aware of it. Perhaps as jstan suggested earlier, not thinking about it, opened up alternative channels or levels for processing, brain paths not usually taken, at least in waking consciousness.

In my case the answer first comes in colors, symbols, maps, overlapping charts like the old color transparencies from anatomy books. Later I try to translate it into words that someone else can understand.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 1, 2013 - 02:38am PT
The important questions regarding these extraordinary mental states remain the same whether they are the qualia of subjective experience or the process of intuitive leaps in abstract concentration.
Are these states mythological descriptions of neural processes? Is consciousness itself a sort of epiphenomenon of biological neuro-processing?
Or do they stand outside of biological functioning?


With Largo's descriptions of experiential subjectivity these descriptions do not contain or convey objective validity.The state he refers to cannot be really described per se, but only framed by what it isn't, namely, symbolic discursive cognition .We must trust him that they even exist at all, or go through the algorithmic procedure to attain the states which he describes, without any real assurance we have not simply been hallucinating emptiness , or merely experiencing a low-cycle brain wave state.

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 1, 2013 - 09:44am PT
I just read this and is how I see Jesus...

God has never made a person he didn't love. Everybody matters to him.
When Jesus stretched his arms out wide on the cross, he was saying, "I love you this much!"
The Bible says, "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all." (2 Cor 5:14)
 Rick Warren

...WOW, I don't why God chose to reveal Himself the way He did in the bible, give us the freewill to choose Him or not, and that He had to send His Son Jesus and die on the cross to Show His love for us? But I know He Loves us for sure!
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2013 - 09:59am PT
I think Largo is doing something similar as far as leaving the known world. It may just be that he doesn't get anywhere and isn't interested in getting anywhere in the process.

Largo is not leaving his brain nor the known world, it happens in his brain, nothing leaves or enters his brain other than normal senses, he is not connecting to something beyond his brain, it's just unexplainable in words, nothing more.

If he was connecting to something beyond, he could answer questions about what he is connected to.

It really doesn't further anything of importance, he has admitted that it will not aid in achieving anything beyond what a normal person can achieve.

He won't say it's enlightenment, it won't end suffering or stop the karmic cycle,
It could be called experimenting with his brain, like young people do with drugs


I take back the sponge analogy, maybe more like a python waiting for weeks in a state of suspended animation for a deer to walk by. Then he wakes back up. kidding..
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 1, 2013 - 10:11am PT
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 1, 2013 - 11:02am PT
^^^^^^^
beautiful!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 1, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Ed, I'm not being discursive, but simply am pointing out what has always been assumed about meditation, and that is you can "arrive" at the same non-place through a cognitive or thinking (however vague) exercise, and that "place" will be the same. Not in my ewxperience.

I don't see this as "my state is beter than yours" in any way. Note how people are scrambling aroiund trying to freame what I'm saying in familiar or known terms. That's what the discursive mind does - contrasrts and compares to what is in the file cabinet. But what I'm talking about is not there. And it's not anti-matter.

JL

MH2

climber
Jun 1, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
That's what the discursive mind does - contrasrts and compares to what is in the file cabinet. But what I'm talking about is not there.


How do you know that what you are talking about is not in the discursive mind of another individual? Your discursive mind may be different from someone else's.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 1, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Ed, the only thing I have repeatedly said to you and others, in so many words, is simple a reitration of, "You can't think your way to heaven."

From where I'm sitting, virtually everyone on this thread simply does not believe this is so. When peole continually come back at me qustioning this basic premis, that dislcursive reasoning is a dead end per certain aspects of consciousness work, my answer is not going to suddenly change to - well, yes. In this instance, you really CAN merely think your way there. I'm not saying that you "don't get this," I'm simply saying that you don't believe it in your heart of hearts.

Lastly, what I have been driving at here is not in the discursive mind because it is not content, not a thought or juju or whatever.

At this point, having repeated these basic ideas for gonig on two years, I'm pretty convinced that people understand the basic concepts, but for the lack of direct experiencs that would counter their discursive reasoning, they don't believe any of it is so, and so are not motivated to find out for themselves. Trying to finagle people to make that effort is feeling like trying to talk people into wall climbing. If the spark ain't there, you can't impose it. But i did think that in some cases somebody would be interested enough to have gone out there and done some little work, and reported back. But in two years, we've seen no movement in that direction. And that amazes me given that this is a thread full of adventurers.

JL
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