Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 4, 2013 - 09:42am PT
//Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow//

From T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men, one of my three or four favorite poems. Yep. Us pocket protector types do like music, art, and poetry.

I don't try to quantify poetry, although no doubt some psychologist is doing research along these lines.

I just like it, and the above seems to fit Largo's idea of perception.

I haven't changed my mind, and I doubt that I ever will, until it is carefully explained in small words. JL has a habit of tossing his writing style into a mental argument. Technical Writing, for lack of a better term, uses terms that are easily understood by others that share that particular language.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 4, 2013 - 09:43am PT
http://io9.com/bees-are-actually-capable-of-deductive-reasoning-468868141


Clever bees.
jstan

climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 10:22am PT
Technical Writing, for lack of a better term, uses terms that are easily understood by others that share that particular language.

Technical writing endeavors to take statements (facts, data, theory, whatever), apply to them agreed upon and deductive processes, thereby reaching a conclusion (hopefully irrefutable).

If reader and writer do not have the same understanding for each part of this process, no agreed upon conclusion is possible. The meaning of no word may be in dispute. Witness this thread.

John is not involved in a deductive process. As a popular writer his task is to describe an experience. His experiences. His writing appears to be purely experiential.



Ed suggested that life is not equilibrium, entropy decreases (a human can in fact take a bag of red and blue marbles and separate the colors) and that the associated energy that becomes free energy can be followed by action (work). That energy or work being what we call soul. Soul being our intention.

Ed's contribution is seminal.

The masthead on my ST page has returned to the symptoms of Alzheimer's. Thanks Ed. That information is of more use to me than what was there before.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Apr 4, 2013 - 11:34am PT
you are partially predefining consciousness, even though there is a whole discussion trying to figure out what consciousness is

Well Paul I would have to cite to Lewis Carroll and say that when I use a word it means precisely what I think it means, nothing more nothing less. (lol)

My definition is self-awareness. The reason I define it that way is because that's what I think the theists are basing most everything on. The feeling of being yourself, of being separate from your environment, of continuity over time. This feeling is what I think causes people to believe in souls. Freud called it the ego (or superego, I forget - I dont like Freud) Babies don't seem to have this for the first year of their lives. That's strange because many other animals are almost fully developed at birth. It may be something that comes about as a result of lower level information processes bootstrapping themselves. Is there a bootstrapping theory of consciousness? If not, we should invent it.

On the other hand, if you wanted to concentrate on the observer-observed relationship, you'd start with nerves and feedback loops. Being "in the moment" - I'm really sick of that expression, but it works here. We could argue about the meaning of the word consciousness but the first thing I would do is agree to use a different word, whatever the best word is.

If you want to say that a virus or a proton is conscious or that reducing entropy is consciousness, fine but its not what I'm talking about. A proton is not self-aware until proven otherwise. The decrease in entropy is a product of life, not consciousness, by my definition at least. Some people may want to base their philosophy on that but to get at the root cause of religion, you have to address the issue, why do I feel like I'm me?

Afterthought: where exactly is this consciousness anyway? Admit it, you think its about 2 inches behind your eyes. Is that because your brain is there? No. That's just a coincidence. It's because that's where your input devices are. If your brain were somewhere in your abdomen, you'd still think "you" were 2 inches behind your eyes. Now what about these drone pilots assassinating people all across Pakistan and Yemen? Their consciousness reflects someplace their body isnt even located. What about a person watching a movie?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 4, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Technical Writing, for lack of a better term, uses terms that are easily understood by others that share that particular language.

Technical writing endeavors to take statements (facts, data, theory, whatever), apply to them agreed upon and deductive processes, thereby reaching a conclusion (hopefully irrefutable).

If reader and writer do not have the same understanding for each part of this process, no agreed upon conclusion is possible. The meaning of no word may be in dispute. Witness this thread.

John is not involved in a deductive process. As a popular writer his task is to describe an experience. His experiences. His writing appears to be purely experiential.


I'd wager you have about half of this right.

I try and keep things anchored in my experience as opposed to borrowing stuff second hand. But when I do technical writing (and I've done a ton of it), like describing anchoring systems, etc., I don't use poetic or literary terms meaning to evoke a sense of something as opposed to furnishing specs. I feel comfortable with both forms, and have worked in both long enough to acknowledge that a one-size-fits-all delivery does not do justice to all subjects. This is a point often lost on quantifiers, who expect any facet of reality, including the whole shebang, to best be framed by way of a deductive process that reaches a conclusion, hopefully irrefutable.

This is a fine approach for the world of things you want to, or can, quantify. The part where people trip up is in believing the whole blooming thing avails itself to quantification. I've hammered this point per recognizing the qualitative differences between things, the tendency of some to cram all of reality into the same box and get to measuring. Problem is the box can't hold it ALL. Quantifiers rejoin that lest it's in the box, it is not real. Ero the cognitive loop.

The reason that mankind, over the centuries, has chosen to dance and paint and write poetry and fashion myths about aspects of reality is not exclusively because they lacked the math to do physics. They are not TRYING to quantify surface layer aspects or functional properties, not because they don't know how, but because they understand to do so is "like dancing about engineering." It simply doesn't work in all cases.

JL
WBraun

climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
where exactly is this consciousness anyway

Consciousness pervades the entire body.

The source of consciousness for the human being is the spiritual soul within the heart.

This is a bonafide fact and confirmed .....
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Consciousness pervades the entire body.

The source of consciousness for the human being is the spiritual soul within the heart.

This is a bonafide fact and confirmed .....

Confirmed by whom?

I say consciousness lives in your eyes, because when I open them, my conscoiousness seems to be connected to them, and I can see the thing that I am thinking about

and the word "eye" = "I", as in me

and when I point to me, I point to my eyes!!

Fact confirmed
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Come on, Werner. People get heart transplants all of the time, and it doesn't mean a soul transplant.

BTW, everyone please sign up as an organ donor. You have no use for them after you are dead.

I had a thought last night when I was thinking about Werner and all of the carnage that he has seen. Mutilated body parts to screaming people with broken ankles. And he has been doing this for 40 years, give or take.

If I saw that much death, I might believe in souls, too. Otherwise I'd get a wicked case of PTSD.

As for simple writing, JL. Please try to do this as much as possible. This isn't a writing contest. State your full case in as few words as possible. The problem is that many of us STILL don't know exactly what you are saying.

It is not detectable by any form of measurement, but is nevertheless real and not magic. I'm not trolling you. I'm still curious. If anyone else can explain it, please do.

It doesn't have to be quantitative to be understandable. Your thinking that is a weak spot. Just make it logical.

Be honest about your experiences (It too a year for you to admit to practicing Zen) and what you found. I PM'd MikeL abut meditation a while back. I'm curious about it, if for no other reason than it calms you and increases your ability to concentrate. I don't care if you talked to Jesus, just describe it.
WBraun

climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
Dead bodies don't do anything and are no problems.

Nothing to get upset about at all.

It's the live ones that you need to worry about ..... :-)
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Apr 4, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
I deal with carnage for a living too. Up to and including chainsaw massacres. I have a few cases of people dying from having battery acid poured down their throats, others beaten to death by a group of people with baseball bats. One of my favorite clients was shot six times in the head, and his skull is severely deformed, but he's alive. Colombia can be a tough place. It was scary at first but after I got used to it, there's no more uplifting work. Whatever bad day you had at work, at least you're not going to be delivered to your wife in three garbage bags with a note pinned on one of them. You can feel fortunate for that, at least. Of course, I don't have people dying in front of me, but I expect you can get used to that too.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 4, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Be honest about your experiences (It too a year for you to admit to practicing Zen) and what you found.
-

The problem here BASE is that you've already decided what I should have found - some thing I can describe to you. A far better angle is to describe the process and you can find out yourself.

If you're interested in this stuff, try Insight or Vapassana meditation. This is especially good for people used to examining things. It's a very active practice and you'll be amazed if you stick with it even for a year.

JL
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 4, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
One of my favorite clients was shot six times in the head, and his skull is severely deformed, but he's alive.


how is this even possible, to be shot six times in the head and still be alive?

WTF?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
It's true Norton. I have 4-5 people as clients who were shot in the head and lived. Normally from assault rifles like M16s where the bullet goes right though. I didnt know it was possible until I got into it. The one shot repeatedly in the head is exceptional.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
damn, Don Paul!

this is bad news

I also kind of figured I might someday, given the worst circumstances of course, have to resort to suicide, and a gun shot to the head just seemed so......final

blows that theory all to hell

have to rethink some things

thanks!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
Its not reliable. When the time comes you can start a thread and we'll come up with something better for you. Actually, the majority of my clients were shot twice in the head, not once. That's the signature of an assassination, at least in Colombia.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Its not reliable.

just can't seem to count on anything anymore, shame
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
This isn't a writing contest. State your full case in as few words as possible.

1 = EVERYTHING

EDIT:

1 = EVERYTHING & EVERY NOT THING (and Not both)

:-)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 4, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
CHICAGO—Calling the overall human experience “poignant,” “thought-provoking,” and a “complete tour de force,” film critic Roger Ebert praised existence Thursday as “an audacious and thrilling triumph.” “While not without its flaws, life, from birth to death, is a masterwork, and an uplifting journey that both touches the heart and challenges the mind,” said Ebert, adding that while the totality of all humankind is sometimes “a mess in places,” it strives to be a magnum opus and, according to Ebert, largely succeeds at this goal. “At times brutally sad, yet surprisingly funny, and always completely honest, I wholeheartedly recommend existence. If you haven’t experienced it yet, then what are you waiting for? It is not to be missed.” Ebert later said that while human existence’s running time was “a little on the long side,” it could have gone on much, much longer and he would have been perfectly happy.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/roger-ebert-hails-human-existence-as-a-triumph,31945/
WBraun

climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
a masterwork, and an uplifting journey that both touches the heart

Even Ebert agrees the soul is within the heart.

Without the soul the brain can never be challenged.

Love is always from the heart.

Dr F's love only comes from his brain and is only lust for his material world .....
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
Hey Werner
What happens when someone gets a Heart Transplant?

Do they get a new soul?
Or maybe it's a half a soul and the old half hangs on in some arteries for the surgery, then moves back after the surgery, to make a full soul??

What is it, I want to know?
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