Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 27, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
People mention all the books written about meditation and so on but the best of those depend on the reader having certain experiences so the information has some context

thanks for your reply, John

and yes, there ARE a lot of books on meditation and consciousness

and as a complete rookie, can you suggest a couple to get started with?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
May 27, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Here's a sleeper. If you're at all interested in a moderated debate on the motion... "Islam is a religion of peace," this won't disappoint. It features Ayaan Hirsi Ali, too. Douglas Murray, too (whom Jan enjoyed I think in the recent Cambridge Union debate).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFvklPpGZtA
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 27, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
and as a complete rookie, can you suggest a couple to get started with?


I would honestly say to forget the books for the moment, and just go join some group where you can practice meditating. It hardly matters where or what form at first. You're just going to be fighting yourself for awhile anyhow so the brand is not so important, only the doing. Once you have a little of that under your belt the books and this discussion will literally get lift off. But be prepared for the astonishing thing (on an adventure web site) that most people are only interested in exercising their discursive minds (the couch potato version of experiential study), or are convinced that they have already exhausted the esoteric arts by practicing in a vacuum.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 27, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
WBraun

climber
May 27, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
God created war so Americans can learn geography ......
MH2

climber
May 27, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Without investigating, you quite naturally will assume that there are in fact only "two operating levels": fight or flight, and "everything else."


The full-on mental operating level I refer to is the sort described in Falling, by Mike Quigley, in Games Climbers Play. That essay is about experiences of survivors of falls in the Alps as reported to Albert von St. Gallen Heim and published in the Yearbook of the Swiss Alpine Club in 1892. A similar instance of unusual calm and confidence after a bad fall begins Rob Schultheis' book Bone Games.


A notable characteristic of the out-there mental state I refer to is that people who have experienced it report viewing themselves and what is happening around them in an objective way, perceiving details clearly, and rapidly and logically reviewing their options for survival. Are you talking about the same thing, JL? It doesn't sound like it from the fuzziness that usually enters your own descriptions of your meditation experience.


Are you quite sure that a June bug will go down under halothane, or just guessing?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 27, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
A notable characteristic of the out-there mental state I refer to is that people who have experienced it report viewing themselves and what is happening around them in an objective way, perceiving details clearly, and rapidly and logically reviewing their options for survival. Are you talking about the same thing, JL? It doesn't sound like it from the fuzziness that usually enters your own descriptions of your meditation experience.


What you're describing above sounds like standard detachment, up to a point. Your example had people in crisis situations who have an important task to perform, so what they are objectifying still is bound up in content - details, options, an action plan, basically, what the hell to DO. This is a describable state.

What I am mostly talking about is beyond a state, doesn't concern objectifying at all, and most of all, is neither concerned or unconcerned about content - but rather context - and so quite naturally the talk concerning this realm will seem fuzzy if not incomprehensible to the discursive mind. Not just yours, but everyone's. The mistake is to suggest that a clearer description is better, or more accurate, when in fact you are simply defaulting back into discursive reasoning, which finds no toehold at all in anything without borders and dimension and size. This is truly something that gets lost on people. For example, I can say up and down that Zen, for example, has no content, but silly rabbits like Cintune can still come back with hare-brained notions that what I am really talking about is a cult. Like a Stonemaster is going to be some boot-licker in a freaking cult. Please . . .

But seriously, the reason the arts were invented was to experientually explore and respond to those realms for which our quantifying minds can only dance on the surface. The expression of these are are not attempts to do science, though softly and inexpertly, but to answer what science cannot. The problem here is often that people expect way too much from science, ascribing to it all the all-powerful qualities of old-time religion.

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 27, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
God created war so Americans can learn geography ......

Did we lose our way to Germany and Japan?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 28, 2013 - 06:23am PT
Unlike Zen, jokes do have content.

[You're also getting really predictable.
As soon as the question about Zen textbooks came up,
I knew your answer would be to get to the sangha.
So predictable. I was going to suggest this:
http://goo.gl/1PRwK ]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 28, 2013 - 07:02am PT
What I am mostly talking about is beyond a state, doesn't concern objectifying at all, and most of all, is neither concerned or unconcerned about content - but rather context - and so quite naturally the talk concerning this realm will seem fuzzy if not incomprehensible to the discursive mind. Not just yours, but everyone's.

The primary deal here is that "beyond a state" is just that. You can 'linger' and 'tarry', but there is little to be 'had' there other than taking the veritable pause that refreshes from your discursive mind. Passed that it's rather like trying to stop breathing, or stop your heart, or tell your hand to stop feeling, there is no other deeper 'place' of being or other insights of that statelessness to be had. That's not to say that practice can't yield lots benefits to those who practice, but that the limitations are by definition. Asking questions about it is like asking for information from the other side of a black hole's event horizon - it's unavailable to you no matter how long you spend meditating on this side.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 28, 2013 - 11:05am PT
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

1 John 4: 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

John 15:9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.



"What A Savior"

Atoning sacrifice
Keeper of this life
Hallelujah You are Savior
Beginning and the end
Forgiver of my sin
By Your mercy You have saved us

Jesus You are stronger
More than any other
Hallelujah what a Savior
Jesus You are higher
My soul's deepest desire
Hallelujah You are Savior

You are the shepherd king
You lead us by still waters
Hallelujah You are Savior

You are my only hope
Your kindness is my friend
In Your presence You restore us

Jesus You are stronger
More than any other
Hallelujah what a Savior
Jesus You are higher
My soul's deepest desire
Hallelujah You are Savior

You are the way, the truth and the life
You are my joy and my salvation
Stood in my place, taking my shame
Upon your shoulders

Jesus You are stronger
More than any other
Hallelujah what a Savior
Jesus You are higher
My soul's deepest desire
Hallelujah You are Savior

Hallelujah
You are Savior
You are Savior


...Jesus is the One and Only!
MH2

climber
May 28, 2013 - 11:58am PT

All (conscious) states of mind are describable, JL. Even if you say a state of mind is indescribable, or has no content, or is neither concerned nor unconcerned, you are describing that state of mind by contrasting it to a typical (discursive??) state of mind. That is fine. Where I object is when you talk about, "being totally present." It suggests degrees of 'being present' less than total: a scale with levels from 'not present at all' up to 'totally present.' A reader may wonder why you put aside the evaluating part of the mind. If that part is ignored or absent, how can you be totally present? Take your own advice and stay away from quantifying. The same applies to telling people they could be more conscious, awake, aware, or mindful. Leave the pseudo-numbers to pseudo-science. Just say that meditation has been good for you but you can't tell other people what to expect. I am pretty sure you have said that. Just a reminder. You have a justified skepticism about science being the answer to every question. But if Zen truly has no content, then it should need no words.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
May 28, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
Blueblocker you asked me if atheists don't agree there is a God that pre-planned their lives and controls their destinies. I think you are correct. It would make no more sense to have this than to have atheists in heaven who didn't believe in it. If one day I woke up reincarnated as a bug I would be thinking more along the lines of Franz Kafka or HP Lovecraft, than in any kind of karmic bliss. Or if I were in an extradimensional space with all the loved ones from my life there too, or surrounded by white like in 2001 A Space Oddessy, I would seek refuge in the only possible explanation: I was in the Twilight Zone and had gone insane. Not only that, but until you get to heaven, you have no free will and an imaginary being is controlling everything. It sounds more like a psychosis than something that would give me solace.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 28, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
It sounds more like a psychosis than something that would give me solace.

Insanity is bliss.




God made me say that.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
May 28, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Quite an impressive list of atheists here.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/25/living/gallery/atheists/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

It's a growing list, too, I think.
Let's check back in one or two generations. ;)


Note the web page link. In Afghanistan, Iraq or Pakistan, it might read the "rogues gallery."
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 28, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
If the Rapture happens any time soon there will be only atheists here!
squishy

Mountain climber
May 28, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
If the Rapture happens any time soon there will be only atheists here!

That will be nice...
squishy

Mountain climber
May 28, 2013 - 05:16pm PT


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 28, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
If the Rapture happens any time soon there will be only atheists here!

and you won't be surprised when you don't wake up after you finally croak........

John 8;22;50
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