Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 09:12am PT

Are you convinced that your own consciousness is merely a phenomena arising from electro-chemical activity in a meat brain?



My consciousness enjoys a donut now and then and it keeps me from stepping in front of moving cars when I cross the street. It doesn't seem to require much attention from me and I don't worry about what kind of phenomenon it is.


By contrast, I find that electro-chemical activity in a meat brain is endlessly fascinating. It has a history going back 500 million years. Who can say what it can't do? Even a 3-cell reflex can show wonderful plasticity and adaptability to the uncertain conditions an organism may encounter in its environment.


http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S0896-6273(05)00466-6


BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 28, 2013 - 09:21am PT
Go-B!!!!!

Don't get upset and split again. I know that what you are doing is part of your faith. It causes no harm, and when some jerk comes on and gives you crap, blow it off. It shouldn't affect your feelings.

This is where I go off on Militant Atheism again. Dr. F. and a couple of others go out of their way to speak out against God, but for me it is quite different.

As long as you are OK, then by all means hang out. Since I have never seen Go-B go off and flame anyone, then he is a good neighbor.

His faith tells him to spread the word of God, even if most of us don't read it simply because it takes too long.

Back to the Bible. When I read Leviticus in the Oncologist waiting area (A good place to troll for souls), it was because I knew that the book was the one that upsets everyone over male homosexuality.

There are so many whacky rules in there that it is almost funny. The old testament God is a pretty mean guy. I recommend everyone to take a look at the second half of Leviticus, because it is full of wild rules that God told Moses. Way more than just the ten commandments. There are probably 200 other commandments along with the sentence.

I saw that it talked about man laying with man, but it didn't mention female laying with female, and Leviticus is extremely precise.

So Lesbians have it made.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 28, 2013 - 09:26am PT
Since all animals have a brain, and the larger ones share anatomical similarities to our brains, I think that makes for a pretty good guess that intelligence is the result of anatomy.

It is emergent. We can look at a spectrum of animals leading to us.

I see no reason to think that humans are special, in a strict anatomical respect. Sure, we have become smarter as a group, but that is the result of language.

Language is very important. I've said it a hundred times, but think about why we seem more intelligent than all other animals.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 28, 2013 - 09:28am PT
Base said about Gobee

This is where I go off on Militant Atheism again. Dr. F. and a couple of others go out of their way to speak out against God, but for me it is quite different.

As long as you are OK, then by all means hang out. Since I have never seen Go-B go off and flame anyone, then he is a good neighbor.

His faith tells him to spread the word of God, even if most of us don't read it simply because it takes too long.

what, since when did Gobee leave again?

He just posted some nice bible verses the other day and I warmly welcomed him back.

I must have missed the flame, who went after Gobee since then?
jstan

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 09:31am PT
Don't get upset and split again. I know that what you are doing is part of your faith. It causes no harm, and when some jerk comes on and gives you crap, blow it off. It shouldn't affect your feelings.

Norton:
It was me. I said "Please spare us."

Base:
For more than 60 years that was the way it was for me also. But then people started trying to make laws forcing me to live the way they say I should live. In some cases when they themselves don't live the way they say I should live. I decided it was time to push back.

I do still have that decision. Don't I? Or did we all start pushing back too late?

It was much better when Go-Bee started speaking his own mind.

I actually read that. I'd love to hear more from him about Cape Breton. A wild and challenging place.



In the late fifties I drove to the cape to attend a school but the lady told me the teacher from Scotland would be a week late. I said, "What is there for me to do in the meantime?"

She replied, "You can swim in the ocean."

I asked, "What temperature is it?"

43 degrees was her reply.
WBraun

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 09:57am PT
I find that electro-chemical activity in a meat brain is endlessly fascinating. It has a history going back 500 million years. Who can say what it can't do?

It can't save you from birth, death, disease, and old age.

It absolutely can't do anything without you (the soul) first.

In other words ..... it completely depends on the living entity itself (soul) to operate.

If the soul is not existent in the body then the body is "dead" by modern medical definition.

Therefore it's useless unless you are there to begin with.

Therefore modern science ultimately is in poor fund of knowledge only studying the machine and not the operator of the machine.

Without the operator of the machine, the machine is useless, as we can see when a dead body is immediately discarded ......

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 28, 2013 - 10:17am PT
Yea Base, I miss go-B also!
I'm sorry you don't have an understanding in the differences between
the OT and the New Testament. Between Law and Grace.
The OT (Law) was only a shadow of the things to come. The only people today
that live by the OT rules are the Jews. Since the sacrifice of Jesus and the NT we are no longer held accountable to the OT law.

So forget about Leviticus. Try Romans 1, specifically 25-32. Here he talks about men with men and women. here Paul paints a spiritual picture of why sexual perversion is against
Nature. And how it harms society's.

Read the book of Romans you'll think it was written about America.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 28, 2013 - 10:28am PT
Jstan wrote
Spare us, please.

On the Uses of Subjective Experience

It has none

What makes the words you write more relevant than those of St. John?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 28, 2013 - 10:56am PT
no, and you keep using "cause" in a way that has no meaning in a physical argument. The Sun does not "cause" the Earth to orbit it... in the manner you mean...

the point of the physical idea of causality is essentially the transfer of "information" which might be a field quanta... and the limiting speed it can travel from point A to point B... you might say that it limits what point A's can effect point B's...
--

My whole point of this Ed was to get you to admit that there is an event, by your definition above, in which information is exchanged, and that there is a CONNECTEDNESS between the units or things that exchange information. You keep trying to slither out of admitting this connectedness of "informational exchanges," or that they proceed in a forward fashion, past to present.

If not, you have information arising out of "no thing." That is, things and eventualities arise and are sourced from nothing at all.

Granted, I am NOT trying to do physics here, and really have little interest in the numbers game. I'm simply approaching this from the position of no-thing, or nothingness.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:01am PT

Instruments detect objective functioning, the firing of neurons and so forth. There is noting in that activity that suggests you are smelling a rose or hearing a siren.


What makes you think that? Are you so sure of the validity of Leibniz' thought experiment? If we did fMRI on a person and compared brain activity during smelling a rose versus hearing a siren, are you saying we could not tell the difference?

You could tell the difference, but this does not mean that by merely looking at brain output one might fully grasp subjective experience itself. Just because you can correlate the activity on a qEEG, say, with depression, does not mean that the qEEGH IS depresion, or is anything more than a numerical model of depresion's physical footprint.

Mistaking the map for the territory is a common misperception in this work, and leads to far fetched claims such as objectivity IS subjectivity.

Not so.

JL
WBraun

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:07am PT
but this does not mean that by merely looking at brain output one might fully grasp subjective experience itself.

Yes

100% spot on.

But that is exactly what all these so called "scientists" want us to "believe" according to their data, observations and theories ....
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Blue said:

So forget about Leviticus. Try Romans 1, specifically 25-32. Here he talks about men with men and women. here Paul paints a spiritual picture of why sexual perversion is against
Nature. And how it harms society's.


nice one
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 28, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
Your subjective experience is the result of cells talking to other cells.
-

As mentioned, there is a million dollar prize for anyone who can prove the above statement in a peer reviewed journal. You can certainly prove that information is produced this way, and that objective functioning also follows this model, but there is "nothing whatsoever" according to leading neuroscientists saying mind, self awareness cha cha cha is "the result of cells talking to other cells." This misconception is inevitable so long as people ignore the quantitative difference between subjective and objective reality, and insist that a one-size-fits-all strategy will give divulge the goods.

JL

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
Except that no one is insisting that it will, only that it seems very strongly to be heading in that direction. And counter-insistence to the contrary has so far provided no proof to distinguish any particular transcendental claim from another, or from garden-variety schizophrenia for that matter. Cha-cha-cha indeed.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
And counter-insistence to the contrary has so far provided no proof to distinguish any particular transcendental claim from another, or from garden-variety schizophrenia for that matter. Cha-cha-cha indeed.


I would just point out the knee-jerk comment, itself snide and puerile, that the only other explanation for mind is a "transcendental claim."

Where did Cintune hear as much?

But the larger question is: What are the other options. Numbers, "God," and what else . . .

It is strange and instructive to see how our minds tend to give us two options, as though three or even ten might work.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 28, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Gotta love the pompous ad hominem disdain that comes out at the slightest provocation. Thousands of years of tradition sure does have your back there.

Keeping as many options open as possible is good practice. Claiming that one of those options necessarily "insists" on a one-size-fits-all strategy is itself an insecure misrepresentation of what's really going on. Here, for example: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=mindfulness-may-improve-test-scores-13-03-28

Neuroscience doesn't want to steal your satori. It just wants to understand it in terms that do without the medieval power tripping you seem so fond of.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 28, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
One for Largo and WBraun
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 28, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
No Cigar, Cintune. You are the specie of dude the Indians refered to as having a "forked tongue."

Of course there's no getting past the fact that you jumped straight to the "God" card once a standard "broadcast" model of consciousness was questioned, insisting, quite incorrectly, that my beliefs on consciousnees we strictly magical, and that neuroscience might "steal my satori," that I'm insecure, and medieval power tripping. These are hardly credible statements, rather glib suet from someone guessing when they should really be asking questions.

One wonders where you got the crazy notion that anything from the experiential realm, from meditation on down, is perforce soft, wu wu, sketchy, based on beliefs, faith, flies in the face of the facts, and is a flight of fancy. None of these are remotely true, of course, but it remains a fallback position for those who simply don't know any better. like I said, clarity on these issues is unlikely to come to you through rash and reckless means. Try asking a few questions, instead, and maybe we can start to get you sorted out.

JL
WBraun

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
cintune

I'll give you some ad hominem sh!t aszhole and it has nothing to do with this thread at all.

I'll give it to you since I have no reputation to protect.

Largo most likely does.

You're a fuking retarded dipshit moron period along with being a constant whiny crying little girl ......

cintune = DARVO: Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender
jstan

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
To get back onto a little firmer ground, I need to ask you a question John.

When you and individual X are exposed to the same stimuli how do you quantify and show that the two of you had exactly the same experience?

I am led to this question by everyone's reluctance to describe in great detail their experiential travels.

For example if a father of eight young children were to fall and have to have his leg amputated, his experience would not be anywhere near the same as that of a young unmarried guy who suffered exactly the same fate.
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