Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13921 - 13940 of total 23148 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 16, 2013 - 12:36am PT
It all depends on how we define the larger issues doesn't it?
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2013 - 12:39am PT
Science per sec can handle any issue.

It is perfect in itself.

It's the individual scientist/s that cause the problem.

Not science itself .......

All knowledge, all science is just a seeking after GOD in the final conclusion.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 16, 2013 - 01:27am PT
. Although meditation may be your chosen path, you should still give science the benefit of some doubt and not proclaim that it cannot handle larger issues.


Discursive investigations by and large concern discrete or measurable things, whereas the experiential adventure deals with the boundless or unborn. That's what I mean by "larger issues." The mistake is to think we are investigating the same "things," just using our our tool of choice.

Another way to look at this question is like this: We can easily see that experiential adventures will never supplant science in investigating objective functioning. This is right and just since every mode of inquiry has limitations. We all know that. Conversely, where do you see the limitations of science in exploring the experiential, or any realm. We know that each mode of inquiry is limited, and that experiential adventure can never grasp, say, quantum mechanics on the quantum level. Where do you see the scientific mode running out of road? The "bigger issues" lay beyond the end of that road. If you only see road, then you're looking at objective functioning - no way around that. What's left?

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 16, 2013 - 03:10am PT
All knowledge, all science is just a seeking after GOD in the final conclusion.

Not true.
Nay.nay

You've been chomping on the wrong tacos.
MH2

climber
May 16, 2013 - 10:03am PT
Where do you see the scientific mode running out of road? The "bigger issues" lay beyond the end of that road.




I can't foresee where science will take us or fail on us. I agree that the methods of science have already been driven into terrain too soft. Just because a person makes an hypothesis, collects data, and does statistics does not mean that anything of value has been learned.

When it comes to what nervous systems do, we are not yet at the end of any road. If meditation looks at larger issues, so might science. To me it seems that the real trouble is not whether science is limited but whether people can cope with its successes. If we ever come to know enough about consciousness to create an artificial one...

I would not want to be that consciousness.

Impossible? I hope so, but go back in human history to a scene with one fur-clad hominid looking at another and thinking, "Ha! He thinks that fire is the answer to everything."
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2013 - 10:23am PT
The art of meditation is itself a science.

It is very scientific and precise.

Not that modern material science has the exclusive hold on what is "Science".

That is what the whole sum substance of the problem has been all along.

When modern material science "believes" it has exclusive hold on what is "Science" it has led to what we see today as pure scientism.

This scientism is the the predominate control that is misleading the world today ........
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 16, 2013 - 11:00am PT
To me it seems that the real trouble is not whether science is limited but whether people can cope with its successes.

as has been well established through the depths of history and amazingly, plenty enough today!

I'm constantly puzzled why sciences current "deficiencies" or lack of capability is implied as certain proof that it will always be so. Fact is, if history offers any indication, such certainty is wholly unwarranted. There are of course other explanations for "push back" which has entirely to do with protecting entrenched dogmas and has no particular interest in expanding knowledge.

In the field of avalanche safety there is a long history of people navigating the snowy mountains relying very much on intuition, feel, experience and other unquantifiables - even successfully, sometimes impressively. A long apprenticeship under the tutelage of the mountain and various pot smoking mystics can certainly yeild a system of survival or even something resembling mastery to the point where you can convince yourself thats all there is to it.

But what if you actually knew not only what a depth hoar grain feels like or that cold air is related somehow, but actually and empirically how it comes to be and goes away? less than a century ago this was completely unknown, even by those who really wanted to know. Whatever was known about basic mechanics let alone micro atmospherics and vapor pressures was unquantified, untheorized, and as unknown as the heavens once were.

Now the really amazing thing is that to this day there are people out there who prefer it that way. For whatever reasons that is their personal choice and to be fair so long as they don't offer their services as an expert guide maybe thats the right choice in terms of their own happiness and motives. Maybe its even their only path to "enlightenment". However if survival is also an objective, you would have to be an idiot not to use all the tools available, especially proven ones, in such a fluid, unstable and still very much "unquantifiable" environment.

MH2 - I realize I have misapropriated the intent of your quote. forgive me and yeah i think you got a point
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 16, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
Base brought up the Allegory of the Cave, but a fuller understanding of what Plato might have been attempting to show might have eluded him. Basically the point of the allegory is that one might be in a dream and may not know it.

I referred to the Matrix a few times up above, but that allegory was not so very good. In the Matrix, the new man ("Neo") awakens from a simulation / dream, but we never question that what Neo wakes up to is the real world (not a dream itself). The gothic, droll world he wakes up to seems more dreamlike than the one he came from if you consider the quality of the cinematography. (It's ironic.)

If you sit in a movie theatre, you can hardly avoid being pulled into the story, irrespective of whether it's a good movie or a bad one. Sure, you might be thinking to yourself that the screenplay makes errors in logic, or that the cinematography is pretty, or that the actors are doing a good job or a bad job, but all of those things are interpretations based upon the story in front of you playing out. No one looks at the screen and sees it for what it is: a screen. You don't see light projected onto the screen; you cannot help but see people, places, events, behaviors, and things. You cannot help but interpret.

The next time you turn on your tv or go to the movies, see how long you can keep seeing the screen and the light (as light) on the screen, rather than seeing the "lila" (the drama).

The Allegory of the Cave may help us to "see" what is actually in front of us: that is, light, sound, tactile feelings, smells, thoughts (as thoughts) without getting involved in making up content / interpretations.

The more interesting and advanced questions are not what is in front of us (the raw data of light, sound, feeling, etc.), but instead: what is the projector, what is that light inside the projector, and what is the film that is creating those images on the screen?

I expect Go-B here to bring forth a scripture about The Light, and maybe for Werner to bring forth a comment about karma (as a film through which the light shines through).

It's all a projection.

Pretty realistic, huh?

MH2

climber
May 16, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
The main thing I noticed about The Matrix (part 1) was that the spider-like machines tending the vat-dwelling humans had more animation and character than Neo.

Plato's cave has also been used to point out that even if you were only looking at shadows projected on a cave wall from light at the entrance, by studying the shadows over time you would likely begin to make conjectures about the world outside the cave. For example, the shadows might move against the wall as the sun rose and set, and then you might begin to notice changes in their position during the year. You might see shadows cast by the Moon. Plato's cave is still a place where ideas could be developed and tested against observation.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 16, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
^^^^^^^

That's true enough, MH2, but I'd argue that's not what people are doing, and it's not what people are aruging here. People here are arguing that they are seeing objects (irrespective of kinds). Objects are reifications. When you no longer see objects but simply experience, then you've stood up and started to leave the cave.

It's just an allegory, you know? It's false because it's just another interpretation or set of concepts. What sense does it make to be investigating the objects in a dream? When you give-up on the dramas, then you see what's real.
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 16, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Meanwhile, outside Plato's Cave the real world goes on . . .

Kind of puts the quest for no-thingness in perspective

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Credit: jogill
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X-47B(2)
Credit: jogill
X-47B&#40;3&#41;
X-47B(3)
Credit: jogill

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Flies with or without a ground pilot's control . . . autonomous entity
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 16, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
^^^^^^

You have it backwards.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 16, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
Yeah. That was my point. Manipulation of the short hair of the public imagination is now a highly refined science with a perfect delivery system, the internet. We are all ripe participants in the allegory of the cave.

You don't have to go full blown crazy to be manipulated. It can be just a little nudge, and we all fall for it. From this, I see a "matrix" sort of future where the truth is entirely irrelevant.

Just look around. I visit some websites and there are 15 companies tracking me and collecting data of my every mouse click.

At the same time, there is a company right out in the open who sells some incredibly sinister software. They found it being used on computers in Egypt after the revolution.

http://www.finfisher.com/FinFisher/en/index.php

Welcome to the brave new world. I kind of feel for the kids.
jstan

climber
May 16, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
Not that many years ago Mr. Long would have had no choice but to have his leg amputated. As it happened a couple million dollars of all of our money was spent to shield him from the real world. So he could continue saying there was no real world. Did we get our money's worth?

Jan is right. I am emotional. It is just I am convinced we don't reach good decisions out of emotion. Teabaggers are emotional. You like what they are peddling? Just look at all the good that has been accomplished on ST using emotion. So many problems resolved to everyone's satisfaction. It is staggering.

In the above I let it rip. When we let it rip we assume we are RIGHT. Assuming one is RIGHT saves a lot of work. I did not break a sweat on this one. So prove me right people and have at me.

Jan tells me this is the basis of meditation as established by Buddha. Does not surprise me. He was a pretty smart cookie. It is a shame parasites make a living off people like Buddha by convincing others he was a "god". You want to reach god? Follow the dollar.
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 16, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
You have it backwards

You've got to be kidding, Mike. This thing is real, solid, and dangerous. To argue that it is merely image or illusion or "reified object" is ridiculous. But if you mean I haven't touched it, experienced it as it really is, been on the bad end of its capabilities, and until I do so it is some sort of illusion promulgated by the internet you might have an argument. But not one I would place a bet on.

Objects are reifications. When you no longer see objects but simply experience, then you've stood up and started to leave the cave


Guess this means Ed is trapped inside the Cave, as am I. Your statement says you "see experience" or dwell entirely in the land of "experience" without seeing (or hearing or feeling, I suppose) objects. Good trick. Or does "experience" mean some kind of deep meditation in which objects disappear?

If you are saying that you become engulfed in the experience to the extent that you no longer discriminate between objects and are caught up in some sort of cosmic flow that is all-encompassing I postulate the objects are still there and that some faculty is guiding you through your "experience." (Of course, if you argue that there is some external "projector" in play then perhaps you have short-circuited that mechanism)

I have had the experience of weaving in and out of the rock in some climbs, with objects and experience merged in a kind of unity - but the "objects" rock, hands, feet, shoes, wind, sky, etc. are there, and I certainly "saw" them.

I don't think we live in a "Matrix" where "objects" are projections, but maybe we do. Are there "scientific tests" that could determine if that were so? It seems I once read of a physicist who was designing such tests. It's probably somewhere on the internet.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 16, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Not that many years ago Mr. Long would have had no choice but to have his leg amputated. As it happened a couple million dollars of all of our money was spent to shield him from the real world. So he could continue saying there was no real world. Did we get our money's worth?
---


Sorry to have taken money out of your wallet, John? When did this happen, exactly? How much do I owe you?

Strange how things get distorted here.

My comments about "reality" are just these:

There is an indisputably real and material (though sometimes a wave) quantum world out there. Our sense data and brain organized things into patterns recognizable to others having our same brains and sense data. What we perceive as aggregate "things," what some of us call "objective reality" is in large part an artifact of our brains and sense data. This leads us to believe that "out there" is a self same world of things that remain exactly the same regardless of whether we are here or not. In fact, what is "out there" is a mental representation and configuartion that, for example, other life forms would not see or experience at all, given different brains and sense data.

For me, as a human being, relative to how I am made, gravity can hurl me into the ground and break my leg. This is undeniably real - for me. But it is not an undeniable objective fact for someone, say, who's physical body is fashioned from cosmic rays, or whatever. Their "objective world" would appear quite different then ours, and so would their measurements because they wouldn't be experiencing the self same "world."

What remains the same, in a relative way, is not a grouping of things out there, but us, and the creative nature of our perceptions, which keeps feeding us a world with what Bergson, de Chardin, Whitehead and others called "duration."

I never said this was easy to grasp. Or explain.

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 16, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
(though sometimes a wave) quantum world out there

This is the type of language that, IMO, comes out of an as#@&%e and does nothing but obfuscate any basic statement. Seriously. What the hell does it mean?

I'm not sure if I am a wave or if I am a particle. Ed help me.

You need to use small and well defined words if you are trying to communicate a difficult idea. After reading them for a few years, I'm almost convinced that there is no-thing to these statements.

You do realize that JStan was not being funny when he said that we now take all possible paths from A to B, don't you? That is Feynman's path integral, which after you understand it, is damn cool.
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 16, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
That is Feynman's path integral, which after you understand it, is damn cool

And it is from what little I know of it. Integration over a space or field of paths is somewhat abstract stuff. I don't believe Dirac proposed computational techniques when he advanced the idea. The acceptance and use of this tool by physicists (because it works) points out a difference with mathematicians, who have not been entirely successful in justifying all aspects of the theory, incuding the measures involved.

But, you know, if it works it works. Dirac & Feynman were touched with genius.

This stuff lies outside my expertise, although I enjoy working with integration of functions of a single complex variable along contours. Interestingly, when these functions are "holomorphic" in a suitably defined region integration along all paths (from A to B) in the region leads to the same answer - basic complex variable theory.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
May 16, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
(though sometimes a wave) quantum world out there

This is the type of language that, IMO, comes out of an as#@&%e and does nothing but obfuscate any basic statement. Seriously. What the hell does it mean?
It's an example of Male Answer Syndrome.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 16, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
Not that many years ago Mr. Long would have had no choice but to have his leg amputated. As it happened a couple million dollars of all of our money was spent to shield him from the real world. So he could continue saying there was no real world. Did we get our money's worth?

This is a manifestly uncool statement. I don't dig it.

You been puttin the wrong ingredients in your consumme.

Don't make me go devil's advocate on all ya'll.
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