Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13861 - 13880 of total 22828 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 11, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
or over her.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 12, 2013 - 09:24am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#302718

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

...Word!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
May 12, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Any Rabbi David Wolpe fans here?

Is Richard Dawkins really the world's leading intellectual?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-david-wolpe/is-richard-dawkins-really-the-worlds-leading-intellectual_b_3226638.html

Any Jerry Coyne fans here?

Rabbi Wolpe impugns Dawkins’s status as “world’s leading intellectual.”

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/rabbi-wolpe-impugns-dawkinss-status-as-worlds-leading-intellectual/

Times ARE changing. :)

.....

Interesting commentary from a Darr Sandberg at Huffpost...
The fact that animals have morality does not mean that it does not come from God.

You claim "Morality comes from evolution" - now you get to prove it. Starting with the most fundamental knowledge about existence currently available - the properties of sub-atomic particles - spin, charge, mass, etc -

work your way up to 'murder is wrong' or 'stealing is wrong'. You cannot invoke anything that is not a substantiated, scientific principle, such as the laws of thermodynamics, motion, etc.

At some point, however, the "substantiated, scientific principle(s)" for some of us - partic those of us who have studied / looked hard at the phenom all our lives -- give way to engineering-esque principles and "human functioning" principles - all of which inform our mental intuition (for better or worse among us) to eventually draw a judgment.

In the end it boils down to whether or not one thinks material brain (via quantum effects, e.g., or circuitry) sources ideas, ideation, sentience, feeling (incl moral feeling), etc.. Of course, as a mechanist, brain mechanist and more, this is the conclusion I've come to after many decades. In contrast, David Wolpe and majority of others think there's no way material brain matter on its own can do it.

It would be nice to eventually have a substantiable answer one way or the other, of course, as nothing else in all the cosmos and human condition carries more implications for our "art" in our many and various "practices" of living.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
May 12, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
re: that atheist Hawkings

Pretty funny,
Hawkings says he has no need for GOD in his theory. Of course if you want to ask him a question you will have to go to the strip club and peel the stripper off his face. These people are absurd. GOD exist and one day they will have to answer to him.

Commenter
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-david-wolpe/is-richard-dawkins-really-the-worlds-leading-intellectual_b_3226638.html
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 12, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

...your conscience will either confirm or condemn you! True peace is through Jesus Christ!
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 12, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
I have to wonder, when looking at Largo's master(s), just how I cook up all the thoughts in my first-person-experience... I ogle, therefore, I am... couldn't have anything at all to do with the way I'm wired, could it?

I asked my Corgi, Jake, the same question, but he simply looked at me, then at his food bowl.

I learn something every day from Master Jake.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 12, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Talking Dog Upset with his Master

Teach Me Master

rrider

climber
Mckinleyville, Ca
May 12, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
I didn’t look because I doubt if those twin galaxies actually exist; they’re probably just in-your-face photons clobbering your retinas
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 12, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
To come up with a theory of mind without using the analogues of other creatures, and their observable consciousness is wrong. Anthropomorphism is rampant in this thread.

We know that an octopus is an amazingly intelligent creature. Have you ever seen the experiment where the octopus learns how to pull a cork out of a jar, climb in, nab the meal, take it out, and eat it?

An Octopus isn't even a mammal. It is a taxonomic kin to a snail.

Dolphins are mammals, and they are more or less the most intelligent group of species other than humans. That we know of.

Largo's idea that we have no idea what the world was like in the time before upright walking primates is ludicrous. There is a huge amount of evidence and work on that topic. It reminds me of Christians who think that we shared the planet with dinosaurs.

I am enjoying all of the references to The Matrix. That movie was terrific. I have the box set because a friend and neighbor is interviewed in part of it. He is an evolutionary biologist who wrote the first code that evolved.

They have a good hour of interviews with modern philosophers regarding the ideas in the movie. "How do you know that this is all real?" for example.

That existential question has been worked to death. When I first got turned on to existential philosophers, I thought it was really cool. I still think it is worth keeping in mind, but if any of us walked around and questioned every bit of sensory information, we would be paralyzed. Now I sort of lump them together, and the main ideas that I find most interesting are Plato's and Baudrillard's.

Their ideas are concerned with how people can manipulate other people's view of reality. This is a VERY lucrative idea.

Really, go read The Allegory Of The Cave, and then you can take off your training wheels for the modern world.

I think that false perceptions and realities are finally becoming very real. Communications has exploded. From the telegram to the telephone to the television to the internet. We are all tuned in now.

Clever marketers can now manipulate us. From a product placement, such as Bruce Willis chugging a Diet Coke, to political manipulation. So the Allegory Of The Cave is now a lesson that every person who is Plugged In needs to know. Don't we all have friends who have gone whacko over the last twenty years, with goofy ideas? First it was Limbaugh ditto types, but now it is everywhere, often so subtle that you don't realize it. I have a buddy and his wife who are now unbearable to be around. They went all Jesus and gun crazy.

This is huge. In the last two decades, people have become extremely plugged in. This begs the question of how some people can manipulate the ideas and perception of other people. I'm not talking about navel gazing perception. I'm talking about daily and every day life perception.

My theory is that those who are clever enough to control this new connected society are the ones who control the same things that wars were fought for: Money and Power. Pussy was the first thing that the internet was good for: Porn. Remember?

It is as simple as convincing you to spend 20 bucks on a water bottle or your ability to call bullshit and continue to use free 2 liter plastic coke bottles. There are other more subtle traps around now. Anything political gets twisted very quickly. The truth goes out the window. All that matters is controlling your perception, even if it is tiny.

Look at this Benghazi stuff. It is obviously a stupid waste of time to attack the President. People believe that Obama is the biggest crook ever, but they don't dare look back at our beloved Reagan, and see how many of his cabinet were indicted for felonies, and there were a lot.

This is the reality that I am concerned about. It might sound paranoid, but if you use, say, North Korea as an example of manipulating the minds of people from birth to death, you will see the danger.

I have a program that blocks companies from recording my tip toes through the internet, so I don't have an ad right next to this post. What do you guys see? Personal information is gobbled up constantly. Social networking sites exist only to gather your most intimate details.

This is a new type of perception, or at the least a very powerful way to control old perceptions in a new way. It affects your decisions daily, including morals, ethics, preferences, wha wha, you name it.

Right now, in this time and place, when I learn more from people that I have never met, rather than from my friends and neighbors, that the Allegory Of The Cave is becoming very real.

I'll go search out some whacko stuff, but if you trot over to the Republican thread, you will get a very polite dose of it.

This is why I have always said that the soft sciences are no longer very soft. They are now becoming the most useful sciences. So what if you figure out that this rock is 1.6 billion years old or not. What matters is only what people believe, and belief has proven to have little to do with the truth throughout human history.

As a study lesson, I will go find some of the more outrageous message threads and post them here. I will try to find examples of people whose perception of reality is so skewed, that they may very well have all taken the Blue Pill.

I have always considered myself a very Red Pill kind of guy. That is why I have always hammered on about critical thinking skills. If they aren't honed, you become a carp.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 12, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
This entire conversation is clouded due to the lack of any input regarding ongoing discoveries in neuroscience. Neuroscience is a hot science now. The new brain imaging and micro anatomical studies are going to bury this.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 12, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
...what I'm getting at here is that our experiences very naturally lead us to hypothesize that other people have a mind which is very similar to our own...

This also covers a general principle I pointed out up thread. I may have been attempting to posit that this " theory of mind" could underlie the radical subjectivist view of consciousness.

If there were no general features of human consciousness why would our subjectivists seek out gurus and masters to convey something meaningful?

And if there are general features of experience this suggests that the subjective experience is not entirely subjective. Such experiences have been corrupted by the objective. Knowledge about the subjective is cross-referenced to another subjective !VOILA! objective functioning, objective features.

!VOILA! Lol.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 12, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
If there were no general features of human consciousness why would our subjectivists seek out gurus and masters to convey something meaningful?

No cigar. You're still thinking in terms of some thing, aspect, notion, belief, or facet of content that "subjectivists" are "seeking."

There are two basic illusions here - First, that any human is at any time an "objectionist," shorn or subjective experience, or that you are having an "objective" experience, a total non-sequiter.

And second, that the fundamental nature of mind can be inpuned from the content.

Try it this way - If you were to remove all of the content of your mind, and for a moment just imagine this as so - then what would your mind be?

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
No cigar. You're still thinking in terms of some thing, aspect, notion, belief, or facet of content that "subjectivists" are "seeking."

I'm not thinking in those terms. Those interested in subjective journeying ,get up out of bed ,get in their car, and then drive to the the meditation center- this is the " seeking" I am referring to.( btw I am not impugning their efforts per se)

Why are they doing this? If there are absolutely no objective elements to the experience they are interested in ,why would they go to the trouble?
If there are important things to learn from the masters of this discipline doesn't this suggest that there are elements in common?

Elements in common are by their very nature residing in the objective world. A world at once accessible to more than one individual and outside of the purely subjective.
It is a contradiction to the credo of subjective experience.
How can a subjectivist claim his/her experience is consistently and uniformly subjective under these conditions?

Try it this way - If you were to remove all of the content of your mind, and for a moment just imagine this as so - then what would your mind be?

I don't mean this flippantly, or in a derogatory way, but I would imagine my mind to be much like a jellyfish .
Floating around looking for something to sting.
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
If you were to remove all of the content of your mind
then what would your mind be?

Simple

An empty clear mind. Like a clean sheet.

Do want a dirty garbage sheet to sit on?

The western materialist carries all their excess baggage in their minds.

Just look at all the garbage in a typical mall.

The materialist has forgotten what a clear empty mind can do.

Their cups run over the top.

There's no more room in their minds ........
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 12, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
There are two basic illusions here - First, that any human is at any time an "objectionist," shorn or subjective experience, or that you are having an "objective" experience, a total non-sequiter

I assume you mean "objectivist" - and I agree. Two sides of the same coin.

Your other comment about removing all content from your mind: would you remain conscious? Or be in a vegetative state? If by mind you mean brain, then you would of course be dead. But assuming the autonomous systems remain in play I would think the latter. But this is more a koan than a possibility. Mind as mirror?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 12, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
I don't mean this flippantly, or in a derogatory way, but I would imagine my mind to be much like a jellyfish . Floating around looking for something to sting.



This is a pretty predictable answer to the question and shows someone who is totally identified with the discursive mind. The discursive mind grinds on things, quantifies, contrasts, narrow focuses, deals with discrete portions. Once you get quiet for long enough you can actually see your discursive mind wanting to grind, to "sting" or engage some thing so it can get back to grinding. This is just more content, in the form of a discursive info stream passing through the mind. It will keep grinding ad nauseum because that's what the discursive mind does.

Note also that it happens involuntarily. "You" don't need to consciously participate for it to keep grinding. That's why people are unconscious that this is going on or that they need not be present.

So my question was not about the grinding, discursive mind, which we can observe with enough practice. My question pertains to the mind through which the discursive data stream passes, also know as Big Mind, or mind with a capital M. What is the nature of THAT mind?

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
The materialist has forgotten what a clear empty mind can do.

Nay, Nay, El Von Braun
Many a time have I emptied my mind to find....well ....nothing.

Seriously, I have at various times , listening to Monroe Institute recordings, entered into various alternate brain waves states.
I regard these states in general as a type of "relaxation response" .

On this very thread I have posted links to scientific studies illustrating the many health benefits of meditation.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 12, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
All that is old style dualistic thinking, Ed That's why there are many meditations designed to get past all the designations and "images between mirrors," like No-mind, and so forth. The provisional dissolution of ego-self is also pretty standard.

The whole wrangling of self is considered a dead end, that why there are koans to show you as much. Self is more appropriately a study of psychology. In the esoteric arts you learn that a self is not only provisionary and conditioned, but illusory.

The screwy thing is people have been wrangling these questions for well over 2,500 years, and those who have never done any of that work remain convinced that they have the real deal fully reckoned - sort of like me figuring I know physics having never studied it. And one better, convincing myself that I do know.

It's an astonishing thing virtually never seen in any other field of study.

Whiff on that.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
This is a pretty predictable answer to the question and shows someone who is totally identified with the discursive mind. The discursive mind grinds on things, quantifies, contrasts, narrow focuses, deals with discrete portions. Once you get quiet for long enough you can actually see your discursive mind wanting to grind, to "sting" or engage some thing so it can get back to grinding. This is just more content, in the form of a discursive info stream passing through the mind. It will keep grinding ad nauseum because that's what the discursive mind does.

In these polemics I have intentionally avoided definitively
characterizing the state of mind of the subjectivist ; preferring to concentrate instead on what I regard as philosophical and logical inconsistencies in the various declarations and claims.
I understand these declarations to be outside of the subjective experience per se.


cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 12, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
The "esoteric arts," that's always a good one.

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