Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 10, 2013 - 09:18am PT
The Purpose Driven Life: What on Earth Am I Here For?
Rick Warren
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/031032906X/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

What Will You Do With The Rest Of Your Life?
http://www.purposedriven.com/day1/



WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?

Preparing for What on Earth Am I Here For?
Rick Warren


"Hezekiah was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years... He did what was pleasing in the Lord's sight... Hezekiah trusted in the Lord... There was never another king like him in the land of Judah, either before or after his time. He remained faithful to the Lord in everything, and he carefully obeyed all the commands the Lord had given Moses. So the Lord was with him, and Hezekiah was successful in everything he did."2 Kings 18:2-7 (NLT)

"(Later) Hezekiah got sick. He was about to die. The prophet Isaiah said 'Prepare your affairs and your family. This is it: You're going to die. You're not going to get well.' Hezekiah turned away from Isaiah and, facing the wall, prayed to God: 'God, please, I beg You: Remember how I've lived my life. I've lived faithfully in Your presence, lived out of a heart that was totally Yours. You've seen how I've lived, the good that I have done.' ... Then God said, 'I've heard your prayer. I have seen your tears. Here's what I'll do: I'll add fifteen years to your life.'"Isaiah 38:1-5 (Msg)

1. GOD WANTS ME TO;
(Build) MY LIFE AROUND HIM.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart ...and soul and mind. This is the first and greatest commandment." Mt. 22:37-38

"A sense of God's wholeness, everything coming together for good, will come and settle you down. It's wonderful what happens when Christ displaces worry at the center of your life."Phil. 4:7 (Msg)

2. GOD WANTS ME TO;
(Go be) WITH BELIEVERS.

"Let us not give up the habit of meeting together... instead let us encourage one another."Heb. 10:25 (GN)

"Those who believed... were baptized and added to the church... They joined with the other believers and committed themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship... They worshiped together regularly at the Temple... and met in small groups in homes ..."Acts 2:41-42, 46 (NLT/LB)
1.Believe
2.Be baptized
3.Join a church family
4.Commit to regular worship
5.Connect to a small group fellowship

Which of these is my next step? (Pick One)


3. GOD WANTS ME TO;
(Grow to) SPIRITUAL MATURITY.

"Let us go on... and become mature in our understanding, as strong Christians ought to be."Heb. 6:1 (LB)

"By now you should be teachers. Instead, you still need someone to teach you...!"Heb. 5:12 (GW)

4. GOD WANTS ME TO;
(Give) SOMETHING BACK.

"God has given each of you some special abilities; be sure to use them to help each other."1 Peter 4:10 (LB)

"What can I give back to God for the blessings He's poured out on me?"Ps. 116:12 (Msg)

5. GOD WANTS ME TO;
(Share) HIS LOVE.

"Through Christ, God has made peace between us and Himself, and He gave us the work of telling everyone about the peace we can have with Himů So we have been sent to speak for Christ!"2 Cor. 5:18, 20 (NCV)



WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?


Daily Hope with Rick Warren
http://rickwarren.org/
MH2

climber
May 10, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
MH2, You CAN'T remove all the subjects. Or any of the subjects. That's the whole point of "all those words." I have to throw it at you a hundred different ways hoping one will find traction.




By subjects I thought you were talking about people, the human experiencers and observers. I don't intend to personally remove anyone, but our species wasn't here once and will most likely go extinct in the future. Perhaps the planet will sigh in relief but waves will still roll across the ocean, rain will fall, and death and taxes will migrate to a new domain.



The observation, Sure I can. I can easily imagine a time where there were no people here on earth. What is at play in this mental game? It answers itself.


What is at play is the nature of empiricism and the working assumption that the world exists independently of human consciousness. Because of what we have learned from studying the world around us we can make good guesses/predictions about conditions that prevailed before any humans were on the planet. We make those predictions and test them by, for example, drilling for oil. That is what BASE104 does for a living. He has a good sense of what empiricism is, developed from years of using it. If there were not a world existing independently of human consciousness, BASE would have had a different career trajectory and we would not have oil today.

Humans process information. So do bacteria. I see no reason why our so-called subjective experience could not be a form of information processing.

If a person really wants to know how a thing works, they should study that thing. It is fine to appreciate subjective experience on its own terms. That is what most people do most of the time. It is fine to appreciate cars as sexy machines that whisk us to climbing areas at terrifying velocity.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 10, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Me: I really do believe that all beliefs are false.

Werner: How does that work? . . . Your belief is that all beliefs are false. . . . So then YOU are false. . . . But you are not. You are a person and have individuality. . . . And that individuality and personality is true. . . . Even the gross materialists do not fall into that trap. . . . Only the the mayavadi impersonalists fall into the trap of merging onto the impersonal which is suicide. . . . But everywhere is individuality, personality and variegatedness which never ever ceases .......


Yes, Werner. It doesn't work. Nothing works. Cause-and-effect doesn't work. The universe is a complete and utter mystery. Go down or sideways or up or in any dimension as far as you can, and you won't find an end or bottom or edge or end to anything. Infinity doesn't work. God doesn't work. The universe doesn't work. Not in any sense that any human can explain it. Choose anything you want to look at. Anything looked at closely reveals a never-ending series of unexplainable and indescribable situations that blows one's mind and transcends itself. What IT is, is beyond, beyond, beyond, and beyond what you think it is . . . and way beyond that.

gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā

There is no "you," absolutely; I am false (and yes, even that declaration is false). There is consciousness, below that is awareness, and below that is something else, and on and on with no apparent end. This thing that *I think* myself to be. . . sure, I'll call that a me, a personality, an individual if you want, . . . but I can already see beyond that construct in the inchoate state I find myself to be in today, no problem.

Oddly enough, all of this is knowable, and all of IT is remarkably detailed and specific. But you can't describe, define, delineate IT. There are no points of reference, nor is there any context.

There are no gross materialists, there are no subjective spiritualists, there's no anything that one can say exists materially or spiritually. Suicide? How could there be? How could anything be and then not be? Where would it go? Everything that exists must be unborn and timeless. If not, then it's a lie. The variegatedness (the grand variety of "things") you refer to is simply the dharmakaya. Everything is a manifestation, but none of it has existence that you can find, theorize, or describe. But you Can Know IT.

Learning is a never-ending process that transcends itself. Ditto for consciousness. Ditto for awareness. Ditto for transcendence. You appear to be involved in all sorts of activity, but nothing changes. There's no where to go, nothing to do, and nothing that could be changed, . . . but for confusion and illusion it seems. Yet the illusion is also What IT Is too. Paradoxical? Of course. Don't get stuck in words.

Anyone can see the illusion. It's right in front of them. It's their very consciousness. Most everyone is in a dream. Everything is completely and absolutely open, spontaneous, empty, and unified, just like in a dream. All phenomena is suchness. If anyone sees that, they will see the dharmakaya.

Any teacher who knows anything knows that anything they say or could say is a lie. No one can say what's true. Relying upon logic won't get anyone anywhere.

If I were totally awake I could say that "all beliefs are true." As it is, all I can report is that every belief I have seen and looked at closely appears to be false, incomplete, and an illusion.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
May 10, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Here's a verse that shows the Bible was not meant to be scientifically accurate.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Understandable in a poetic sense but far from scientific. The dust only comprises 4% of the human body. 60% is water (from water vapor that condenses from the sky (air)) and 36% is from water, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide from the air that plants transform into food. So 96% of the body is from the air and returns to the air after death. To make the verse 96% scientifically accurate just substitute air for dust:

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the air; for out of it wast thou taken: for air thou art, and unto air shalt thou return.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 10, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Here's a verse that shows the Bible was not meant to be scientifically accurate.

the Bible is the direct word of God, all of it, God did not cherry pick what to put in there

God knows all about science, she invented it

God would have no good reason for not being scientifically accurate

therefore, Gross Materialists and Americans are stupid

go see the Old Man in the Woods if you want enlightenment



cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 10, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
This harks back to something I have a feeling no one is quite getting hold of - and that is how our own imaginings of prehistoric times - before man as biped - are viable only if there was someone on hand with our brains and sense data to observe the world we imagine or measure in the present.

The reptiles and insects and whatever else was around had sense data of those worlds, so there were the rudiments of mind there, that at least from the first chordate would literally evolve to what we've got, so we've actually got that. Go back to before life and it does turn into pure imagination, lots of volcanic activity and asteroids crashing down and erosion, lots of erosion. But reconstructing the geologic record takes us there in a perfectly "viable" way.


The idea of a self-same world existing out there and we just come along and observe it, and it corresponds exactly to what our sense data is telling us it is, is a total illusion. The only thing that exists "out there" in objective form is the quantum flux. Consciousness does all the rest of what we take for "objective reality."

Doesn't that depend on what you mean by "objective form." The "quantum flux" is certainly out there as far as we can tell. We can imagine it, this exotic zone of energy decaying into matter. But our physical senses are not tuned to that, just like we can't directly hear radio waves. What we experience is the level of mechanical physics. Like jstan's example of social neurons, reality exists across realms of scale, only a small range of which we directly experience. So, that given, how do you conclude that these sensory inputs are therefore "a total illusion," and how is consciousness doing "all the rest." All the rest of what?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 10, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Any teacher who knows anything knows that anything they say or could say is a lie.

So why do they teach? Seems a bit disingenuous to say the least.

No one can say what's true. Relying upon logic won't get anyone anywhere.

Congratulations. You have invented Dadaism.



MH2

climber
May 10, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
all I can report is that every belief I have seen and looked at closely appears to be false, incomplete, and an illusion.







MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 11, 2013 - 03:06am PT
The idea of a self-same world existing out there and we just come along and observe it, and it corresponds exactly to what our sense data is telling us it is, is a total illusion. The only thing that exists "out there" in objective form is the quantum flux. Consciousness does all the rest of what we take for "objective reality."

Who in the f*** wrote this?

John, is this you?

Really fu*king good. (Pffftttttttt!! Dude. You're plugged in!)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 11, 2013 - 03:11am PT
Nay, mon frere, nay.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 11, 2013 - 03:11am PT
God did not cherry pick what to put in there

You'll find this difficult to prove. Look at anything that you do. You Did That? Really? Be honest. Don't you secretly admit that there were things that you did beyond what you are or were at the time, in mind or body. Somehow, didn't those things sort of do themselves, with you as a vehicle.

If you think about it, . . . cool . . . . isn't it? If you just relax in any situation, you'll find yourself simply doing itself.

Relax. Just let go.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 11, 2013 - 03:24am PT
NAY!!
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 11, 2013 - 03:34am PT
MH2: What is at play is the nature of empiricism and the working assumption that the world exists independently of human consciousness.

It's all you have, isn't it? I mean when you get right down to the core of your argument, this is it, isn't it? A working assumption.

As Morpheus said with a smile in The Matrix: ". . . interesting."

Dude, which pill do you want? The red one or the blue one?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 11, 2013 - 03:42am PT
So why do they teach? Seems a bit disingenuous to say the least.

It's not like you have a choice in it. You show up in the job (name it) and they show up wanting to be shown. You have a role to fulfill. There's no fu*king choice in it.

You think you have choices? Cool. Become John Wayne in the next moment.

Don't play me. Be here and now.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 11, 2013 - 09:01am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#302610

...oh yeah, Jesus is precious to me to!
MH2

climber
May 11, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
MH2: What is at play is the nature of empiricism and the working assumption that the world exists independently of human consciousness.

MikeL: It's all you have, isn't it? I mean when you get right down to the core of your argument, this is it, isn't it? A working assumption.



I am not clear on which argument of mine you refer to.

I do not see any need to explicitly assume that there is an independent reality. Most of us have a strong visceral sense of a world around us that we need to be familiar with to go about our daily lives. Both a 6-year-old and a scientist can share that sense. No explicit assumption about the nature of reality is needed. You can just go about your business.

The question about reality existing independent of human consciousness only seems to come up in philosophical discussion. Those of us who prefer the assumption that there is an external reality only need to say so in order to distinguish our view from that of solipsism or nihilism, or perhaps from fantasy and fiction.

Even if you don't assume that there is an external reality your body will do it for you. You could sit in one place until your bladder ruptured or you starved but the needs of your body will try to get through to your exalted consciousness and remind it that existence does not come free of charge.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 11, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Don't play me.

But I have no choice.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 11, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
I'll take a crack at those questions later. Right now I'm doing some work under the master . . .

Roshi Roxanne
Roshi Roxanne
Credit: Largo
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
I worry about her back
dirtbag

climber
May 11, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
I'd love to do some work under her.
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