Psilocyborg
climber
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Feb 22, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
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Dr. F....if by "warm fuzzy feelings" you mean communicating with alien entities, becoming everything, or transcending time and space, then yeah. Warm Fuzzy Feelings :-)
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
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That is exactly what I mean when I use the words
"a warm fuzzy feeling"
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Feb 22, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
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The warm and fuzzy feeling of certainty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certainty
We have a missing link between scientific observation and objective spiritualism. That link was severed by the Bolsheviks when they enlisted old Pavlov and Wundt to prove that men were nothing but dogs and God had no part in it obviously. Otherwise a wise and loving creator would stop their hands as they slaughter and enslaved their fellow humans.
But that is a bitter view.
I like to have the positive view that in a hundred years or two we'll all have this figured out and everyone will be able to observe, understand and use the spiritual powers they already have.
It is a pleasure to bat this all around with some pretty intelligent skeptics in this forum.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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There is no link
Humans have been looking for the link for 60,000 years
They never found it, so instead, they pretend it exists
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Feb 22, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
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Now, you don't know they haven't found it.
Maybe Neandertals found it. If you believe the brain theory, the should have been smarter with an extra 1.5 cubic inches of brain on average. Then a band of early Republicans lynched them.
There could be whole crowds of people doing magical stuff.
You are just not hanging with the right people.
Your cactus' have united and subverted your free will. You only work to support them. The rest is an illusion.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
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They can post up right now, and tell us what they found
we have many people here that say they found something, but won't describe it when put under the simple pressure of actually writing it out in words that we can agree upon that are factual
And you are wrong about illusion, I live under no illusions, that is what being a "Skeptic" is all about, no illusions nor delusions
Those cactus spines will penetrate your skin no matter what Matrix you believe in
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 22, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
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Personally I don't need any answers and don't expect to find them here. My own quest is described by the title of one of Chogyam Trungpa's books, Journey without Goal. Either I will go to sleep at the end and be oblivious or there is something else out there. I'm ok with either one. Then again, I've already lived a long and privileged life compared to most people on this planet and I was fortunate to live in a time when many possibilities all over the planet were open to me. I am acutely aware however, that most others are not so fortunate and need the comfort that religion provides.
Part of our confusion I believe, is that Largo is talking about a form of spirituality that few attain. The rest of us have been dealing with intermediate experiences. Perhaps this is the difference between the soul which most of us have felt, and the spirit which most of us have only read about. To get to the spirit, one has to purify the soul and that is absolutely the opposite of warm fuzzies. The idea that spirituality is about warm fuzzies is either ignorance of the process or simply a way to write it all off as inconsequential.
As for whether Dr. F. is left or right brain, the answer is both are well developed, but they are not integrated at all. He is either being wholly one or the other at any given time. Compartmentalization is one life strategy, particularly when society's rewards are almost all in the left brain direction (professional athletes, artists and musicians are few and far between). If he's managing to make money off of his cactii, then that's one way he's integrating the two domains and I congratulate him.
As for the spiritual trying to fit their world into the physical, I believe that it may yet fit but that we aren't there yet, it is as Tom suggests, already fully integrated (my own philosophy also), and that for sure in sociological terms, the desire to reconcile them is because of the relentless pressure the scientific, technological, impersonal world with the power of capitalism behind it, has put on every other aspect of life.
Spiritual and religious people feel backed into an increasingly small corner (not small enough according to most people on this thread), and yes, many are reacting irrationally trying to defend some small part of the non materialistic world. Go to Florence or go to Kyoto and walk around. Then drive through an American strip mall and feel the difference. If you say they are the same and reflect the same inner qualities, then I will say you are a person who has truly lost your soul.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 22, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
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Ed, but you already decided beforehand what a viable answer MUST be (a measurable "thing" or perceivable thing), meaning you are only wiling to do science on the subject of spirituality. I remember the last Matsumi Roshi used to handle these types with a simple koan: do science on the truly basic question: Who am I?
I AM A SCIENTIST... so it is what I do, would Matsumi Roshi have me do otherwise?
I thought I was being gracious in my post... by allowing the unknown to be truly the domain of the unknown, not in any particular court, religious, spiritual, philosophical, scientific...
it is the unknown, after all, and perhaps we all have some skin in that game, though played at this level it's not much...
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Feb 22, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
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The problem with spirituality is that there is no worldwide consensus on its particulars. Attempts to reconcile all the mystical traditions that have sprung up over the millenia have failed, because they're all culture-bound products of overactive imaginations, spinning off in a thousand different directions from the basic impulse of wishing for something more than the humdrum evidences of materialism. So the true believers can ride their blinkered hobby-horses, and the more meta-inclined can reel off their peculiarly distilled grammars of abracadabra, but apart from forming a united front against non-belief, they rarely agree on anything specific, and they don't want to talk about that. Meanwhile, back in the humdrum, there's really a lot of amazing quantifiable stuff going on. But to each their own.
[And Jan, that's a pretty selective comparison. There are plenty of spiritual communities in the U.S. where you can practically cut the patchouli with a knife, if you know what I mean. :-) ]
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 22, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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Which aspect of redness isn't inherently 'spiritual'?
Which aspect of pain isn't inherently 'spiritual'?
Which aspect of an orgasm isn't inherently 'spiritual'?
Which aspect of sitting quietly isn't inherently 'spiritual'?
Which aspect of stepping off the visor isn't inherently 'spiritual'?
Which aspect of a flower isn't inherently 'spiritual'?
Which aspect of a virus isn't inherently 'spiritual'?
Which aspect of simply being alive isn't inherently 'spiritual'?
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Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
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Feb 22, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
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Ed you do a fantastic job at respecting the unknown AND people. You're an excellent role model.
DMT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 22, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
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I will note for the third time on this thread that the Dalai Lama has organized a group of contemplatives and mystics from many different religions (Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam) to come up with a unified vocabulary and encyclopedic catalog of spiritual experiences.
This globalization of spirituality has come about through the ecumenical movement in which all the participants have realized that they are never going to agree on dogma but that they have had similar inner experiences. It has also resulted from the sorts of criticisms leveled by the scientific and secular world that we have read on this thread.
In the end, I think we will have a universal manual on the potential of the human mind and nervous system to transform itself. Those who are secular can look at it as a mechanical process, and those who are religiously inclined will then add the vocabulary of their specific traditions. New religions will no doubt spring up to interpret it in other ways as well.
Whatever survives as civilization when the oil runs out and the 9 billion have eaten their way through the ecosystem, will no doubt have to face life without material consumption as the center of their existence and then I think this work will come into its own.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
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Part of our confusion I believe, is that Largo is talking about a form of spirituality that few attain. How do you know this?
just from his writing here.
Can he prove it?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 22, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
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I don't know if Largo has experienced what he writes about or is just good at reinterpreting Zen teachings. It's not my job to delve into and judge someone else's spiritual experiences. What I can tell you is that he knows his Zen inside out.
I accept his explanations and those of the Zen masters because they are so consistent and because they fit with somewhat different vocabulary into the highest level of experiences of many people from very different traditions.
I trust I could get there myself if I worked harder at it because I can't imagine why so many people on opposite sides of the globe would spend so much time meditating and then writing about it if it was all a big hoax. I accept a lot of intangible experiences into my reality. When someone says they love another person, I don't ask them can they measure or prove it. I accept that they do.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
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How much work does it take?
Do you think you will ever attain a state of enlightenment?
Or a state that you are satisfied with?
or is it a lifelong journey, and no one really makes it, so to speak
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 22, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
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No disrespect intended, Ed.
You said: I AM A SCIENTIST... so it is what I do, would Maezumi Roshi have me do otherwise?
He can't do anything now since he's dead. And he'd laugh at the reference.
In his day Maezumi would have you be Ed the scientist AND Ed the Zen master. He would settle for nothing less, since both are yours by birthright. Problem is it's not one-size-fits-all, much as people want it to be.
Booth paths require rather particular steps that find little traction in the other camp. And it's been my experience on this list that the people identified with discursive reasoning as the end-all are not curious enough to look beyond. And so we end up with spectacular misrepresentations like this:
"because (all spiritual practices) they're all culture-bound products of overactive imaginations, spinning off in a thousand different directions from the basic impulse of wishing for something more than the humdrum evidences of materialism..."
This person has so little acumen in what is actually happening that he's lumped practice in with cultural acretions, and mistaken one for the other.
FYI, a lot of modern Zen has little to nothing to do with Japan, Buddhism, or any of it. But believing otherwise, based entirely on perusing old sacred texts, we have a wonky version of spiritualism served up consisting of soft-brained dorks "wishing for something."
I've said that spirituality has zero to do with "some thing," or any "things," stuff, entities, etc. wished for or otherwise, but we simply cannot shake these numb-skulled depictions. It's even driving poor John Gill mad. So I'll no longer counter them lest I get soft headed.
I'll leave this with a quote from Jan:
"The idea that spirituality is about warm fuzzies is either ignorance of the process or simply a way to write it all off as inconsequential."
There you have it.
JL
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
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Well it's not ignorance
so it must be completely inconsequential
There you have it
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 22, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
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Well it's not ignorance
so it must be completely inconsequential
You have the intelligence of dead stone .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 22, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
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I will say again that if all a person has received through either psychedelics or meditation is warm fuzzies then they were only at the portal of the whole experience, with maybe a foot in the door.
Many spiritual traditions do mention that in the beginning one has many spectacular experiences and that these are what lure one onto the spiritual path. Then when the hook is thoroughly in, they stop and the real work of spirituality begins. Mother Theresa noted that she had a period of 20 years after her experiences in which she felt nothing right up until her death, but based on faith continued her good work.
I personally have a theory that we have a limited reservoir in our brains of the chemicals which cause these experiences, and once the reservoir is used up, we generally don't have them any more or they occur after years of quiescence while the reservoir builds back partially.
To me they are connected to a different dimension because I can never produce them on my own, and they only happen when engaged in spiritual activities. We can not produce our own psychedelic show at will although sometimes it happens spontaneously (though not to me).
Beyond the biochemical experiences (once through the first portal) one has experiences that seem to be electrical in nature. After that, energies flow differently in the body and all this helps to start the real work of gut wrenching transformation. At least that is how it works in the schools of meditation that I am familiar with which are based on kundalini yoga.
Zen takes a more direct path but I believe the stages are similar based on an autobiography of the late Zen master Jiyu-Kennett, a British woman headquartered at Mt. Shasta, who described her kenshos in the same terms others would describe their chakras. Largo is talking about a level above all this.
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