Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13601 - 13620 of total 22989 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
MH2

You're pretty damn sharp.

One of the sharper tools in the shed .......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 13, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Being energy (as in human "being") is simply your experience with your language chip removed. When we disconnect from labeling anything - which we silently do with language - you're just there, and everything is new. The problem is few people have the patients or drive to wait out the surface anxiety of not thinking, as he rational mind is screaming that they are wasting time. "What's the point?" That will ring out for many months. Years, even.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:07am PT

Descartes attempted to address the former issue via his method of doubt. His basic strategy was to consider false any belief that falls prey to even the slightest doubt. This “hyperbolic doubt” then serves to clear the way for what Descartes considers to be an unprejudiced search for the truth. This clearing of his previously held beliefs then puts him at an epistemological ground-zero. From here Descartes sets out to find something that lies beyond all doubt. He eventually discovers that “I exist” is impossible to doubt and is, therefore, absolutely certain. It is from this point that Descartes proceeds to demonstrate God’s existence and that God cannot be a deceiver. This, in turn, serves to fix the certainty of everything that is clearly and distinctly understood and provides the epistemological foundation Descartes set out to find.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/descarte/

I have never been comfortable with the operative certainty of Cartesian doubt. Descartes attempts to arrive at epistemological ground zero by the mechanism of doubt which is itself hardly reliable. Doubt seems to me to have the further drawback of being conditional on too many indeterminate, transient factors.
Descartes , as far as I am aware ,never establishes the epistemological credentials of doubt itself . He never established the rationality of doubt . He attempted to imply that in a philosophical sense doubt was the equivalent of a universal axiom, or ratio, against which the external world could be balanced in its particulars and truth could be ascertained.. Doubt was the central part of an equation that allowed Descartes to prove Cogito ergo sum. Doubt in this equation was equal to zero.

Moreover, Descartes was brilliant. In more ways than one.


Put him in a Lycra jumpsuit and he would be instantly indistinguishable from any member of a generic arena rock band from the 70s..
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:41am PT
Yes, the language chip is not up to the task of elucidating the fundamental reality underlying the world or the universe we experience around us nor will our sciences ever be, however advanced they become.There was a famous sci-fi writer, if my memory serves me correctly,who stated "the universe is not only stranger than we imagine but stranger than we can imagine.When we look out at the night sky the stars we see are not as they are but as they were in the past and not just one past but a nearly infinite number of pasts.When we look into the subatomic realm things are stranger still,smaller and smaller particles of matter whose properties and in some ways very existence are observer dependent.Our rational minds will never explain the initial creation since they are finite in that our time is based, and in the conventional world, on the notion of beginning and end.If we can't even answer the most basic question of from where, how and when we came to be it kind of nullifies all that is subsequently built upon this non-knowledge. Would it matter in the slightest bit, as far as our power of observation goes, if we substituted thought for matter and considered ourselves a force or vessel that contains self replicating pattern of thought here for experience? Forgive my ignorance, i am no scientist,theologian, or even pol.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 14, 2013 - 01:24am PT
MH2 is paying attention>
Just hasn't met the Holy Ghost yet^
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 14, 2013 - 01:43am PT
hey there say, all...


was just up late, here and wondering who was posting so late, over there...

(well, wherever you all are) :)


say dr F... nice cactus pictures, :)
well, night all, :)
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 14, 2013 - 05:11am PT
Seems like Zen etc consider conscious thinking to be bad and get in the way of "direct" observation of the world. What kind of a strange fantasy is that? Consciousness is part of how your brain works and the development of language was important in man's development. If it's hard to stop your conscious thoughts, its because that's how your brain works. I don't doubt you can continually ignore conscious thoughts and push them back into the background noise, or train yourself to walk across a bed of hot coals. A path to another dimension? I doubt it. If it were me, I'd rather concentrate on making my stomach stop digesting food so I can lose a little weight. Also I was never sold on the "Tao of Physics" back in the 1970s, its not a new idea. No doubt the Charlatans will latch on to anything that seems to give their kooky ideas credibility.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 14, 2013 - 05:25am PT
What are the new age religions referring to when they use the word "energy"? It's some kind of physical property of the universe that can only be detected by closing your eyes and concentrating?
Norwegian

Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
Mar 14, 2013 - 05:57am PT
the universe is a vagina,
ignorance is a penis.

energy is an s.t.d.

love is a condom.

hate is semen.

god is the egg.

religion is the menstral cycle that flushes
god from the womb in which she dwells.

einstein, borne today,
is the immaculate genius
that earned his gestation
within the virgin universe
when buddha's love
failed to curb
hitler's hate
which issued from his crimes against humanity
and penetrated
the moist crease in-between spaces

how's that for speculation!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Mar 14, 2013 - 06:00am PT
A fair compromise is in the works.

Scientists say they've found a "God particle"


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57574247/scientists-say-theyve-found-a-god-particle/
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 14, 2013 - 08:34am PT
Seems like Zen etc consider conscious thinking to be bad and get in the way of "direct" observation of the world.


No cigar, but that's a common mistake. Considering conscious thought to be "bad" is once more just a mentalizing loop applied to thinking itself, resulting in a dog chasing it's tail kind of circle. The idea is not to resist or move away from anything but to take a total hands off approach, disidentify with language and labeling, and simply sit directly with what is. What most people think of "what is" is what their minds are telling them in terms of evaluations and so forth. What happens when you leave off evaluating? Note that your mind will immediately start to revolt with instructions about what you would rather be doing. Few people ever get to the point to realizing this is not "them" saying as much, but rather their evaluating mind, which is only a part. There is no separation. That's what's called awareness fusion - your awareness is fused or enmeshed with whatever evaluation is coming up. This is accomplished by narrow focusing. Go to open focus and the world opens up.

Of course we need to spend most of our lives narrow focusing and consciously living. The above is a practice, like climbing, and no one spends all their time climbing. But when it comes to the evaluating mind, it is by nature totally freaked to NOT be in charge ALL of the time, so getting separation from it, even twenty quiet minutes here and there in your day, is to gt bombarded by pleas to get on with something worthwhile = cognitive. That's just how the evaluating mind works. It doesn't require any conscious participation. It will just drag us along and we think "we" are in charge. In fact when we are fused with it, there is no "I" at all. That's Sufism.

JL
MH2

climber
Mar 14, 2013 - 11:16am PT
Being energy (as in human "being") is simply your experience with your language chip removed. When we disconnect from labeling anything - which we silently do with language - you're just there, and everything is new. The problem is few people have the patients or drive to wait out the surface anxiety of not thinking, as he rational mind is screaming that they are wasting time. "What's the point?" That will ring out for many months. Years, even.

JL



I like that. It's as though I've been listened to and understood and answered in language I understand.

Not a complete answer perhaps but a good one.


Being in the desert and coming across a small cactus in bloom was a deeply impressive pre-language or beyond-language experience of my own youth in Texas and Oklahoma.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 14, 2013 - 11:52am PT
When we look out at the night sky the stars we see are not as they are but as they were in the past and not just one past but a nearly infinite number of pasts.When we look into the subatomic realm things are stranger still

With regard to the number system, someone once said that when we look up at the stars at night, they are like the rational numbers (fractions). The black void beyond is like the irrationals (Pi, 2^1/2, etc...)


;>)
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
A baby just sees colors and shapes, although its vision is perfectly focussed. At first it doesn't know how to interpret the information from its eyes. Then its brain builds models of things, and creates symbols - ball, stuffed animal, etc. That's before the baby has any language skills and is independent of language. It's more basic than language, just the recognition that a ball is an independent thing and is not part of the rug. Years later, language replaces it with a more abstract symbol, the sound of the word "ball" that the baby hears, instead of the circular red shape. A symbol for a symbol, like the ciphers in philosophy or MH2s thermometer example.

I don't think you are going to unlearn the concept of what a ball is or the fact that it is round. Maybe you can. But why? Even assuming you did, and were just staring uncomprehendingly at a red blob in front of your face, how could this be enlightening? I don't think its any kind of natural state, and that the brain developed concurrently with the development of language. ie, language is not alien to the brain and doesnt get in the way of perceiving things.
Norwegian

Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
don paul if i may dissect with my dull splendor,
your analysis of our's understanding of
animate objects?

obviously, "the ball," is the
animation that interrupts your freefall into everywhere...

... so we see a ball with infant eyes.
we then want the ball with a yearning heart.
we then get the ball, upon some valiant battle.

now that we own the ball, we understand it.
though understanding can be neither created nor created,
so in spending a little dust of our knowledge
digesting the ball, we ultimately attain a higher
understanding of nothing.

which is ultimate.
so we gain the inverse of everything
as we pursue the finite minutia.

we're a simple, though complex fraction:
everything divided by nothing equals,

huh?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
"animation that interrupts your freefall into everywhere" - yes exactly, it's the focus of your attention. One strange thing I've noticed is that I appear to be looking out of a go pro camera at my field of view. The problem is, the camera isn't on. It's not recording. When you leave the room and can't remember if there were two chairs in it or three, you'll realize that most of this information was ignored. You have millions of nerves hard wired to your brain but for the most part, they're ignored. Smash your hand with a piton hammer, then your brain will have memory to record. This part, I think, is illusory. We're not recording all our experiences, only certain parts.

And that's the whole problem with all of this, is that the ball is real but your symbol and your mental image of it is not. People are saying the exact opposite.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
well,

after finally, I think, understanding what John Long refers to as the spiritual...

I don't think science and the spiritual are in any kind of conflict.

Science proposes theories and seeks to prove or disprove them through the highly rigorous and peer criticized Scientific Method.

Yes lots of shades of black and white, but ever the search to draw conclusions and understanding of our natural world.

Inner spiritualism exists purely in the consciousness, with seemingly endless shades.

Science (sometimes) seeks to test, evaluate spiritual findings through data and perception collections and quantifications.

Inner spiritualism does not appear to "bother" with the scientific methodology.

How am I doing?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
And that's the whole problem with all of this, is that the ball is real but your symbol and your mental image of it is not. People are saying the exact opposite.

It depends on your perspective. The idea that consciousness or choice reifies otherwise undifferentiated "reality" is not a new idea, harks back to radical subjectivism and even the Copenhagen version of Quantum Mechanics. Undiferentiated reality is not a "thing," but a moving target always in proces of becoming something else. So when Ed wonders if the maps are in fact what is real (real = a quantifiable unit or thing), IMO, we should wonder to.

JL
Norwegian

Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
Mar 14, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
don it is quite simple.

you are here.
your struggle is that you distant
yourself from there.

so your passage becomes a struggle.

there.
that ellusive destination.

it'll simply come to you,
as long as you don't chase it.

these folks, hartouni (he's gotta lot of structured hypnosis, i.e. education polluting his wonder), john long though he be mighty on the stone he obviously flails down hither... et. all (that's me)

are approaching the unknown with a condom on their wonder,
they're suffocating in their own hyper-aspirations;
they are completely befuddled by that which is.

it. simply. is.

pursuit of understand only entangles the suitor's strides,
and thus they are left, shouting,
while face first upon the slippery medium on which they seek traction.

it's all in the bottle, man.
every knowledge: those expired and those yet to gestate.

acceptance is not for everyone.
for in surrender we expose our
vital vunerability.

and that ignites fear.
which always stimies the calm collector of ignorance.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 14, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
OK, I'll think about it. Up to now I've been confined to my own mental construct of the world. Maybe it IS time to venture forth, outside of my actual brain, allowing my consciousness to become one with the multiverse of mind.

That reminds me. What can we make of the fact that humanity, as a whole, processes information? With the advent of the internet, it's happening in real time. The Harvard PhD dude says that certain kinds of information processing can give rise to "subjectivity." How could this be detected? How could such an important thing as consciousness be undetectible?
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