Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
John Long,

first, thank you for even finding my post questions to you on a previous page bumped by a big ass cacti picture, but also for responding to it above

I "get" that you summoned a personal strength to deal with your injury as described in apparently an unusually stoic manner

however, I don't see how this relates to the learned, studied, spiritualism you speak about

your personal example shows you to have a strong mind, but do not many other people have strong minds and can react as you did but without the formal structure spiritual "training" you have gone through in your studies?

or are you saying that it was only from your training that you were capable of reacting as you did, and that others like me with no formal training, cannot?
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Socrates strongly opposed the Sophists of the day back then.

They were everywhere and vocal with their fertile brains run amok.

They based their opinion of right and wrong and of truth and falsity were completely relative.

Socrates on the other hand asserted that there is an absolute, universal truth or good,
beyond mere speculation and opinion, that could be known clearly and with certainty.

Oh oh ...... :-)

He was a super smart guy, very advanced and laid waste to their silly projections and mental speculations with sound logic and reason.

He destroyed them although the sophists stubbornly held on to their stupid nonsense even after they were defeated ......
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Mar 13, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
The Buddha said:

Life is a journey.
Death is a return to earth.
The universe is like an inn.
The passing years are like dust.
Regard this phantom world
As a star at dawn, a bubble in a stream,
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp - a phantom - and a dream.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 13, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
your personal example shows you to have a strong mind, but do not many other people have strong minds and can react as you did but without the formal structure spiritual "training" you have gone through in your studies?

Not "studies," but practice. Studying is what we do in school. I never studied Zen except for reading a few sutras and reading Moon in a Dew Drop 1,000 times. And my reaction had nothing to do with "mind' as you are using it, meaning that some kind of spiritual ju ju mind control was summoned. No. I simply traversed into being energy and that did for me what I (ego mental John) cannot do for myself. The distinction is crucial, lest you think I am suggesting some mental stunt here, and I'm not. This is not a matter of "how to use your mind." It's no-mind in practice, where the rubber meets the road.


or are you saying that it was only from your training that you were capable of reacting as you did, and that others like me with no formal training, cannot?



I could react like that because I spent time cultivating my presence in that place. I cannot speak for others, or how they might respond when bones are showing. It is not an easy position to deal with.

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
This is not my thread, it is the property of SuperTopo
They just let me post here
Credit: Dr. F.
and what a ko wink-e-dink
I get to post at the top of the page
If there is Karma, (which I do not beleive in) it has had a queer way of making me check in at same time this thread comes up to the top of the page.
So what else am I going do, Bump it with a cacti pic
Yea

please, carry on

Ed
I will say that cactus is a Pediocactus simpsonii
if it's a native species, if not, I will try again
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
ok John, thank you for your answers

I feel that I now better understand the mental state you are able to put yourself into

it seems to me that you are using or converting your own energy in time of crisis to in effect divert it to your mind to "cope"

and I assume it follows that this same energy tapping into can be used for things other than physical crisis, like meditating and .....
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Dr F,

yeah, we know you just started the thread and thus have zero say so thereafter

but really, you do use this thread to post all kinds of cactus pictures that happen to be of personal interest to you

cool, I guess whatever we all want to post, just go ahead and do it

relavant to the thread's title, assuming "science" justifies your cactus pics because the plants were created by man using genetics

science related could be car pictures, really any damn thing, right, cool with you?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Post anything you want
except car photos,
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 13, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
Credit: Don Paul
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 13, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
Largo
That's a Great pic upthread! That does asmuch for me as a pic of U infront of ElCap.
I seriously trained on an Erg for three yrs at Santa Barbara. I love/hate that machine. Thanks science!
I imagine if U could position ur push'in foot between the stirrups, (maybe by improvising a piece of wood? connecting the two foot beds) so that your push'in force would be down the middle. Thus allowing ur upper body to be more in balance?
Stay on that thing though! Get some technique, and seek out a lake that rents single sculls
and give it a row! You won't regret it!
I must say, rowing in a boat with 8 other men. Is THE most Zengasmic experience I've ever had! 8 men/women must "come" together at once under one voice,(the coxswain) under one mind, under one power, under one balance to achieve a coherence of one perfect stroke after another one. The feeling of "Swing" in a boat leaves you with a sensation of being as powerful as 8 men. Its the most intense shared conscienceness between 8 men, at the same time,
I've experienced!
Duece was a rower!

Jus Relat'in
BB
Psilocyborg

climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
[quote]The the East and West, they should cooperate.[/quote



I like this quote from the movie..."Modern materialism strips people of the need to feel responsible. And often enough, so does religion. But I think if you take quantum mechanics seriously enough, it puts the responsibility squarely in your lap, and it doesn't give answers that are clear cut and comforting. It says yes the world is a very big place, its very mysterious, mechanism is not the answer, but I'm not going to tell you what the answer is!"

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Mar 13, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
but really, you do use this thread to post all kinds of cactus pictures that happen to be of personal interest to you

 And then there's me. I can be transfixed by a good cacti photo.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 13, 2013 - 06:32pm PT

relavant to the thread's title, assuming "science" justifies your cactus pics because the plants were created by man using genetics

So Norton,, This man ""Created"" these plants? By what definition do you go by? He didn't
form them with his breathe. Did he? Naw, he sculpted them, carved them, formed them.
"Created" them out of "materials" that were already there for billions of years. This is how i
understand what Jesus did in Genisis 1. Language is EVERYTHING!
I see U got a new pope.. Argentinian...

Jus Pontiffy'in
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
Hi Blue,

I am sure Dr F will see your post and respond in person

but to answer your seeming disbelief, yes indeed

"man" does create all kinds of plants from man altered genetic seeds, yes!

this kind of stuff has been going on for a very very long time in efforts to increase crop yields

hopefully Dr F will enlighten you further on the scientific aspects of genetic plants creation and modification! He has spoken of his own scientific efforts at creating different kinds of cacti for example, he is very well known and sells his work worldwide
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
"Every atom in your as#@&%e was forged in the heart of a dying star."

Carl Sagan
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 13, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
I really enjoy this short talk by PhD Michio Kaku. He's willing to stick his neck out and be very brave, much like Einstein did.

To say that Einstein didn't know there was a higher power, or didn't believe that there was a higher power that ordered the Universe and set the physical laws into motion is to not know the true Einstein.

Perhaps a G-d that is a G-d of order, and sets physical laws that govern everything, also sets spiritual laws? I think so.









Michio Kaku: Is God a Mathematician?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jremlZvNDuk




Is G-d a mathematician? I think so. That is indeed one attribute and characteristic of G-d. (By the way, G-d gives gifts and skills to mankind. These gifts and skills come from G-d. Read the Book of Exodus. The skills of the craftsman were given to them by G-d. If you're good at something that is in turn good, then thank HaShem. I'm sure Newton realized his gifts were from G-d, and he was indeed very gifted.)

You can't read the whole word of G-d and not recognize that G-d is a G-d of order, perfection, and he uses numbers and patterns to illustrate that throughout the Word of G-d. Yes there is numerology throughout The Good Book. There is indeed Bible Code. Sir Isaac Newton was right. But he didn't find it. He didn't have the computer.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 13, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
Jingy,


Thanks for this video ...


Neil deGrasse Tyson: We Live in a Cosmic Shooting Gallery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=utyGXL8IXAo





Sounds like PhD deGrasse has been reading the Book of Revelation.




Now I really like PhD Neil deGrasse Tyson, but I have somewhat against thee. The Bible, G-d's Holy Word has showed us the power and the destructive abilities of asteroids, meteoroids, meteors, meteorites thousands of years ago, long before modern science knew anything about it or even had the inclination to ask the questions.

Read about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Book of Genesis 19.









And let's not forget Wormwood that is yet to come ... Revelation 8.

Wormwood is described as a mountain on-fire falling out of the sky. Hhhhhhmmmmm. Where have I heard that description before? Gee PhD Gene Shoemaker used that close description. Gee, PhD Neil deGrasse Tyson uses that description, Mt. Everest falling out of the sky.

Did they read The Book of Revelation?







Scientific Scenario Of A Comet's Impact And The "Wormwood Star" Prophecy
by Marshall Beeber
http://www.messianic-literary.com/comet1.htm





And sure enough our worldwide NEA/NEO detection system even knows the Biblical prophecy ...


Project Wormwood

http://www.ips.gov.au/IPSHosted/neo/


We will know its coming yet we won't be able to stop it.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
"the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
Albert Einstein

"For me," he added, "the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."
Albert Einstein

Addressing the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people,
Einstein wrote that "the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."


Albert Einstein: God is a Product of Human Weakness
The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 13, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Einstein: God is Good at Math, but the Bible is “Pretty Childish” (and what I would say to him about that)
October 8, 2012
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/10/einstein-god-is-good-at-math-but-the-bible-is-pretty-childish-and-what-i-would-say-to-him-about-that/

Even the word “God” is a problem, as we saw above. Rosen explains:
That’s not, however, because Einstein rejected the notion of God, but because he took the idea of God very seriously, elevating it above a religious conception to a mathematical one. To Einstein, the elegance of the phsyics [sic] guiding the universe were God’s handiwork, the mark not of a humanlike being that maintains control over the world, but of a divine beauty in nature’s laws.


Einstein expresses what God is like as follows:
Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible laws and connections, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in fact, religious.


He believed in a G-d, perhaps a creator very good at math, yet he had problems with the stories of the Bible. However, he seemed to be very impressed with Yeshua (Jesus) of the New Covenant, The Son of G-d, Emmanuel – who was G-d with Us here on Earth.

To say he didn’t believe in G-d, a higher power, would be wrong.


"G-d does not play dice with the Universe."

-Albert Einstein
MH2

climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Most of what we know of Socrates we know through Plato. How much of that is Socrates and how much is Plato is hard to tell. It is unlikely that Plato remembered the dialogues well enough to transcribe them verbatim, and even if he did he likely modified them to suit his own purposes.

Doubt as a theme in philosophy came to prominence with Descartes. Could what we think of as real be only a dream? Do our senses tell us the truth? Descartes decided that even if all you thought of as true was in fact false, you still could not be deceived about the fact that you exist. Is that much consolation? Is it true? All of what you perceive, remember, believe, and think may have been created in the previous instant and it might disappear in the next instant without "you" being any the wiser. And what is time?

Descartes got beyond the problem of doubt by assuming that a benign God would not create our senses and our mind only to deceive us. We might not be satisfied by that reassurance, today.

Like anything else, doubt can be carried too far, but it is perfectly okay to wonder what Largo means by, "I simply traversed into being energy".


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