healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 21, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
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The assertion, in all cases, assumes that the "proof" of purported truths must be defined by criteria particular to its very own camp. As opposed to abstractional camps of fundamentalists who possess purported truths which, almost by definition, can have no criteria by which they can be defined.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
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Feb 21, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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cspirit - where God connects/communes with us. it is a place/space within our soul. without God it is a vacuum/void. JL has been describing it as a "no thing ness" (etc). i concur, it is that (without God). but, it was created for and meant to be filled. and it yearns to be filled. people try and fill that void (qwell that yearning) with jobs/advancement, fame, fortune, sex, drugs, hobbies, generally material things, but also with religion! but, no thing will fill it except what it was created for (God). btw, Lucifer/Satan can present himself as an "angel of light" he imitates (decieves).
spiritual - what happens in the/our spirit. we are soul (will/emotions/intellect) body & spirit.
spiritual universe - there is a 4th/spiritual dimension. that dimension consists of spiritual forces, light & darkness. forces i am sure you have all heard about (so i will spare you the "church speak").
but, when the Apostles, Prophets & various individuals spoke/wrote of experiences such as visions, dreams, being "caught up in the spirit" or various encounters while here in the flesh, they were attempting to describe what happened when they came into contact with this spiritual universe. and, although rather rare on the whole/relitively speaking (amongst Believers in general) they continue to happen in this day ("end times"). in fact, the Bible prophesies that it would, "Old men will see visions, young men will dream, dreams."! and, once again, L/S is an imitater/deciever (so keep that in mind).
edit: "mind/brain activity ... and add all sorts of noise..." -- i agree & lots of worldly distractions/material distractions, etc. (church speak)!
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Feb 21, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
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spirit = imagination
spiritual = imaginary
spiritual universe = see above
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Malemute
Ice climber
the ghost
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Feb 21, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
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^^ I beg to differ
A spirit is a FIGMENT of the imagination.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 21, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
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without God it is a vacuum/void
As if that's a problem.
it was created for and meant to be filled. and it yearns to be filled.
A sad, if not utterly desperate, anthropomorphic projection.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 21, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
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spirit = imagination
spiritual = imaginary
spiritual universe = see above
It's interesting to guess what kind of experiences a person must have had to arrive at these conclusions, of whether he too, has tried to imagine or think his way to said conclusions, as opposed to making the effort to do something. Also, I would wager that the word "imagined" refers to some "thing" or entity which the mind cooked up to sate existential fear - that's the party line. And it's way off base.
And Healyje, I'm not sure what you mean by "abstractional camp." If by this you mean people purporting "abstract" ideas, I take it you are referring to discrete "things" and stuff that are apart from material reality.
Or is this another attempt to insist that infinite qualities stand up like men and show themselves so our discursive mind and get hold of them and render judgement.
Who do you know who has gotten fruit from such an approach? No one I've ever heard about.
JL
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MH2
climber
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Feb 21, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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Or is this another attempt to insist that infinite qualities stand up like men and show themselves so our discursive mind and get hold of them and render judgement.
Who do you know who has gotten fruit from such an approach? No one I've ever heard about.
Probably the Pythagoreans about 2500 years ago, for a start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_root_of_2#Proof_by_infinite_descent
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Feb 21, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
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It's interesting to guess what kind of experiences a person must have had to arrive at these conclusions, of whether he too, has tried to imagine or think his way to said conclusions, as opposed to making the effort to do something. Also, I would wager that the word "imagined" refers to some "thing" or entity which the mind cooked up to sate existential fear - that's the party line. And it's way off base.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 21, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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...infinite qualities...
Now we're talking...
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Feb 21, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
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Good answer, but that wasn't really the thrust of my question. Have you "seen" in four dimensions, or have you "seen" the particle-wave duality? I threw in the drug stuff as examples of perceiving things that were beyond normal experience, but I am more interested in things on the frontier of science that seem to defy normal logic.
Thanks anyway.
I am not educated on those subjects enough to know. I am just a simple man. But I do believe one thing I have experienced is what you are getting at, but it is indescribable and uncomprehendable. I can only describe it as a timeless energy grid that is unchanging eternal underlying everything. Any attempt to accurately paint a picture just falls incredibly flat. It truely is like Lao Tzu trying to describe the Tao. Perhaps it is more like the Yin to the Taos Yang.
The trade off with these experiences is there is a complete loss of ego, so you can't really do anything but experience. It is like being in a dream, you just go with it. The minute "you" comes into the picture the vision will fade. It is so far beyond 4 dimensions, and wave particle duality, those things are just meaningless when you step beyond the physical universe.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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spirit = imagination
spiritual = imaginary
spiritual universe = see above
I love that quote!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 21, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
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This conversation reminds me a lot of two people who speak different languages trying to communicate wherein one begins talking louder to the other, then mutters under his or her breath about the inferiority of the other, and finally swears at the other because they can't comprehend the speaker's own language.
In a successful cross cultural situation, one tries to use a dictionary or an interpreter, or one starts learning the other's language. That isn't happening here. I know the scientists will jump down my throat insisting that they are objective, but from my perspective, they are the ones who keep shouting louder and louder.
Anytime the spiritually oriented try to define what they mean, instead of listening, the science types quickly dismiss their ideas as inferior by the criteria the science types themselves set up. Thus no real communication takes place. That's like one person shouting at another, "speak my language because it is best. I know it is best, because it's the one I use". The spiritual people meanwhile are saying, you can't judge my language until you've learned to speak it, and to speak it you have to learn my vocabulary, my grammar, my body language and customs.
So here we are shouting at each other across a chasm as large as the Grand Canyon. In the meantime I can say I've learned a lot about science and the scientific mind set in the process, but I don't think much has been learned about the spiritual world view. And then of course there is always the diversionary tactic of insisting that a person who doesn't speak one's own language must be speaking a third language (religion) even though the person maintaining this doesn't know either of the other languages involved.
One has to conclude that ethnocentrism is rampant and there is no real desire for communication.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
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but I don't think much has been learned about the spiritual world view. Maybe you have realized that there is nothing to learn, since it is devoid of substance
like us
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
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I knew it all along.
God has a God !!!...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 21, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
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Dr. F,
Keep with cactus pics. Cartoons are a little shallow at this point.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 21, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
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I know the scientists will jump down my throat insisting that they are objective, but from my perspective, they are the ones who keep shouting louder and louder.
This assumes that people have the conscious wherewithal to know the difference between functioning strictly form within the discursive mind, wrangling, adding, dividing, figuring, charting discrete things, and letting go of that tool and being open to using another tool. Just the idea alone of using another tool is so threatning and terrifying to the rational mind that it, not any conscious "I," will do all the "shouting" in order to get the conversation back on familiar ground. Everything else will feel like utter bullsh#t, not because it is, rather because from the limited perspective of the rational mind, there is no other. Ask Craig.
To get movement there has to be conscious willingness, and in my experience, the last thing folks want to do, even adventurous folks, is to really dive into the cloud of unknowing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloud_of_Unknowing
Many modern practices approach practice in a similar way minus "God." Tastes differ according to experience.
JL
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
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You make alot of assumptions of what I know or how I feel
I think your discursive mind is overly judgemental, and maybe, you are just fooling yourself, like the rest of humanity
science is the only known method of finding the truth, and exposing fallacy
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Feb 21, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
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Anytime the spiritually oriented try to define what they mean, instead of listening, the science types quickly dismiss their ideas as inferior by the criteria the science types themselves set up. Thus no real communication takes place.
Yep.
There are those with minds made up to agree with "man is just meat" theories.
There are those who hand all responsibility for life over to a big spirit in the sky.
Then there are the curious. The ones asking questions.
People can find spiritual power, higher awareness and better perception.
Dogma and chemicals never worked for me.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
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Or you can find nothingness
and see what it really it is
NOTHING
and I MEAN Nothing
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