Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13441 - 13460 of total 23145 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
Religion belongs to the infancy of man.
TY
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
It is just possible there is no need for religion at the center of a black hole.
There is no need for religion at my house, either.
Unless you are a sowbug.
MH2

climber
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
That way we could both marry this girl and not marry this girl and see which worked out better.


Are those all the possibilities?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
It is just possible there is no need for religion at the center of a black hole.
---


I can't speak for religion, but is it just possible there is no need for slide rules in a foxhole when the mortars start going off or all sides.

I also have to wonder about the common belief that all religious aspirations are existential responses to doubt, suffering and fear, or at any rate, to some perceived lack, real or imagined. IME, at least some of the religious types are seeking truth, thought it might not be of the probabalistic kind.

JL
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Mar 23, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Base -

If we could teach 2nd graders the basics of critical thinking, then we would be better off as a species.

 Thank you for clearing that up. I thought for a moment that you had no idea what the basis for the scientific method was….Not that I know the depths of the SM… just that at its base.. it is….. critical thinking.

Cheers
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
rick
I said there were no WMD before we invaded
My wife heard it loud and clear over and over
few of us were duped, then nor now
They are still spewing the same (but different) set of lies, Iran building Nuclear weapons being one of them

You don't have a monopoly on being able to suss out the BS around here,
some of us are experts at it
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
Well good Dr. there are plenty of lies being proffered by both sides of our political system. It's my sincere hope that the good peoples of this country could wake up to that reality. Perhaps this forum,with it's polarized and forcefully offered opinions would be a good place to start.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Religion isn't so much a search for truth as it is a search for control.
Cue Nietzsche, Burroughs....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
Tell me about the history of the Earth. You can extend it to Astronomy and Biology as well.

The Universe is 8 minutes old and it is already millions of light years wide.

Seriously, if you have been even merely tangentially acquainted with my prior posts you would know that I am not the sort to whom you would easily pose that question .

I am an agnostic who nonetheless respects the spiritual inclination in my fellow humans, whatever form that may take. In the same way I accept and respect most forms of creative art , even though I may be at odds with the technique or the intent. I also respect science and technology tremendously.
I regard spirituality , broadly defined, as an essential expressive form of the human experience.
Throughout the history of our species the spiritual impulse has made itself a more or less permanent fixture of human life.
This in itself means something. A very profound something.
Human groups , wherever and whatever their context, are consistently spiritual. There are no native tribes that are atheistic. There is no MauMau tribe in Borneo or somewhere that prostrate themselves before a 'no god' or 'gods'

The usual explanation proffered by the scientifically -inclined ,modern existential on-the-go ,active, hipster, has always been something like:
"These poor ignorant pre-scientific humans , unlike us, the ultra-informed cognoscenti , were simply looking for an explanation for the indiscernible cosmos . We , on the other hand, smartened-up by science, now have solved the riddle of existence"

Well, slick, until you have truly solved the riddle of existence I am putting you essentially on the same level as the tribe that believes an eternally gestating frog god is at the center of all existence.
Have you solved the riddle of existence?

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
rick
I would have to disagree
we should discuss this on the other thread
But what lies are the Democrats and Obama shoving down our throats??

Fact based vs. fantasy based
two completely different realities

Just like religion
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
Primitive people were/are not trying to understand the universe through religion, they were/are attempting to control it.
This can't be stressed enough.
Ditto for science, but it does a much better job of both.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:50pm PT

Tell me about the history of the Earth. You can extend it to Astronomy and Biology as well.

Base, sure seems that you have a lot of angst toward the idea of the world being less than
10k yrs old. I hope you know this theory comes from scholars trying to figure out meanings
through biblical codes. Mostly I think to predict the last days. But, it does NOT say that
anywhere in the KJV Bible. I hope you keep your angst pointed toward those people's theory.
And NOT the Bible! Ur always challenging us to read your links. And I do. Well when was the last time you read Genisis? I challenge you to read the 1st book and tell me how olds the
Earth.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
Okay Dr., maybe your right,so as not to disturb the deep "Thinkers" puzzling out the riddles of the wider universal truths perhaps the merely political should be discussed on another channel. However ,i refuse to get into the pissing match exhibition of your other most popular thread. Why don't you start another thread titled something like "The peoples points of agreement".
Don't you think it would be much more productive (as climbers or former climbers) to start on common ground?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:08am PT
Religion isn't so much a search for truth as it is a search for control.


To some extent this is true, though there is just as much diversity within the religious community as there is outside of it - at least that was my sense of it when I studied philosophy in a seminary. So yu can expect many and various approaches.

Where you lose your way is in thinking the "control" issues only and always concern outside people, places and things. It's mainly an inside job. Old time medicine men might have been trying to control malaria, or whatever - to little effect - but you can be sure there were those who looked up into the night sky and wondered what, if anything, lay beyond the last thought.

You have to cultivate a massive capacity to listen in such moments, otherwise you're simply shoveling ashes or talking to yourself.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:19am PT
No worries, I'm listening. Despite evidence of this limited typed-message format to the contrary.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:49am PT
Blue said to Base:

Well when was the last time you read Genisis? I challenge you to read the 1st book and tell me how olds the
Earth.

yes, Base

please do read Genesis and take Blue's challenge and report back here how old the earth is!


Wow Blue, interesting it is now you asking that question as I asked you that very question at least three or even four times and you absolutely refused to give a number in years, in fact you said the earth's age is "whatever the bible says it is".

so I am curious what a true scientist like Base will say when he reads Genesis...aren't you too?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:02am PT
I have a lot of hostility when it comes to the history of the Earth being grossly taught according to the biblical account of Genesis. For instance he created stars on the 4th day. Wrong.

That is something I know a lot about. Oil and gas are found in sedimentary basins. Hydrocarbon bearing basins are intensely studied due to their economic significance. Fossils are uniquely found in sedimentary rocks, as well as the depositional environments of each cycle of sedimentation.

This topic is so well studied, by thousands of scientists, and I study it every day. It is as plain as day. If you want to ignore this, and go to creationist websites or even the hilarious Creationism Museum.

This is simple stuff, the basics of historical geology. It is a freshman level class, usually the second class you will take in most curriculums. The science is literally rock solid.

Teaching creationism is just a silly way of teaching the incorrect version, usually the book of Genesis. It is incorrect.

Evolution is another one. I'm not a paleontologist, but I've studied it in the past. I do see fossils on a regular basis, and it fits quite well with evolution. Extremely well.

The account given in the book of genesis is false. It is a narrative that is the result of the ignorance at the time in which it was written. If you want to believe that, OK. Just don't try to sneak it into the science classroom, because it does not belong there. It belongs in the theological classroom.

I am pretty laid back about people who are religious. My family is religious, and I have had a lot of fun conversations with my father, who was a computer science professor. He is a devout Christian, but knows not to tangle with me when it comes to the history of the Earth and the history of the Universe.

Here is a Republican's thoughts on science. He is on the House Science, Space and Technology Committee, and made some recent remarks about science and Christianity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge64kMFoQEo

He calls evolution and other sciences "Lies Straight From The Pit of Hell." He also claims that from his knowledge of science that the Earth is only 9000 years old.

Look. We didn't go looking for a 4 billion year old Earth. We look at the evidence, and the entire rock record across the entire planet simply does not fit the Genesis account.

One native American creation myth has humans coming out of a hollow log.

This just doesn't fit. It is such a poor fit for the physical evidence that anyone who believes the literal account of the book of Genesis is being willfully ignorant. All of this study can be found in any large university science library. The University of Oklahoma has a large geosciences department, and the geology library is larger than our city library. You just need to go read a little of it, or go take some geology classes.

It would be great if it all fit Genesis and Noah's great flood, but it doesn't. At all. It is like getting mad over Newton's laws of motion.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:50am PT
I think the absolute proof of god is when He told Mosses to cut off his foreskin.
I mean, come on. Who else but god would have known there was a pretty little
helmet underneath that mask?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:56am PT
I have read the book of Genesis. God created the Universe in 6 days and rested on the seventh. The order in which things were created, particularly the fact that Adam appeared pronto, are false. We know that the Universe took a lot longer than 6 days.

So God got upset about Eve eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge (maybe here is where we find the dislike of science) and they were cast out more or less.

Then Noah showed up and he was a good guy. When he was 600 years old he was ordered to build the Ark so that God could flood the Earth. All animals got on board the Ark.

OK. There have been some big floods in the past, but they were local, and we know that by the time humans showed up, the crustal plates were pretty much as they appear now. Humans are that recent in the history of the planet.

There is a long history of who was born to who and how long they lived. The shortest lifetime that I noticed was 160 years. Noah died 350 years after the flood, making him 950 years old.

This is how people try to date the Earth using the Torah, the Bible, or the Koran. Genesis is the first book in the Torah and the Bible. I'm not sure about the Koran. I've tried to read the Koran, but it is so violent that I couldn't handle it.

None of this checks out. There was never a great flood which covered the entire Earth, and not only life existed all over the planet in areas unknown to the writers of Genesis, including man, there is no evidence of a great flood. Perhaps they were trying to understand marine fossils appearing on dry land.

It isn't that long. There are some boring parts, but some of it is very specific regarding the history of the planet and the universe. In those verses, they are almost universally incorrect.

Believe it if you like, but by the time that man was settled down into its agrarian existence, humans had migrated to all continents. The Mormons explain this fact by stating that they are lost tribes of Israel.

Slick. This does not fit with physical evidence.

The science of geology is a very broad topic. Every aspect of rocks and fossils have been studied intensely. Our quest for knowledge is certainly not finished, but the basics about the Universe from the astronomers and the basics of the planet are well known and not that complicated. You could pick it up in two years of study. If you go for a doctorate, it is likely that you will study a very specific and limited aspect of geology. There are guys that spend their entire lives studying the mineralogy of silicious melts, for instance. If you can think of it, usually someone else has as well. There isn't just one little book of geology. There is enough to fill very large libraries, and this is just earth science, not counting meteorology, which has its own enormous library.

So I just read the book of Genesis. Besides just the ten commandments, God told Moses an awful lot of other rules that are discussed in Leviticus.

Do you want me to go into Leviticus and its crazy rules that no Christian follows? The entire first half has a lot to do with burnt offerings, and the second half goes into slaying your enemies and your crops failing for certain transgressions.

I don't see how you can pull that homosexual line out of Leviticus and hold it to be true while ignoring all of the other rules.

edit: I just read it here:

http://www.allonlinebible.com/Genesis/1.html

There is a new version of the Bible which changes things from the KJV. I didn't like that one.
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