Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
So we are talking about a Russian ameba here?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Even a single cell amoeba can outsmart the whole world .....
WB
Really??
Even though they don't have Brains????

What about this plant, is it smarter than you?
Credit: Dr. F.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 7, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 7, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
Another thing they need to explain is how psychedelic drugs can cause full-on religious revelations. A lot of religious rants just sound like somebody's tripping out and it makes me think they're related. I listen to them on the radio on Sunday mornings, and they remind me of schizophrenics who've just lost control. It's entertaining at some level, but if you try to follow their logic its seriously disturbing. It's like they're doing a demonstration of mental illness for the audience. I'm not talking about people speaking in tongues or snake handling, just the ordinary ones on the radio. Either mental illness or psychedlic drugs.

Psychedelics were used in many early religions, Obviously in South America but if you look into Chrismas, Santa Claus and the pagan origins, drinking the urine with fly amanita was the main event. Santa was some bright red mushroom guy in the original production. The point's not to open the doors of perception, it's that at sub-visual doses those drugs induce religious exstasy. Rapture, awe, extasy, that kind of stuff. It must be the same brain circuitry working (or not).

There was recently a study where they gave people psilocybin and did CAT scans of their brains to see which parts of the brains were affected. The tripping wasnt from stimulated brain function as you might guess, but from having certain parts of the brain suppressed. So I'm guessing that these religious experiences people have are some kind of extreme brain reaction to stress. They've literally worked themselves into a frenzy, where some part of the brain that's supposed to control it, can't. The same exact mental state can be induced by drugs.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 7, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
^^^ I could say the same about climbing. But not very enlightening
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 7, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
You don't outsmart people with brain cells.

You sure as hell don't do it without them



Never ever underestimate what you're up against.

If you really understood consciousness and how it works you can easily see how even a simple amoeba can destroy anyone at chess if it so needs to be done.


Well maybe that amoeba has some impressive powers of consciousness, but I'd love to see him actually move the piece.

This thread would be no where without WB. Kinda like the Climate Change thread is a dud without The Chief.
WBraun

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
Actually it's the other way around.

I keep responding because you only have half a brain cell of an amoeba with almost no consciousness.

As I said, never underestimate what you're up against Bruce ......

You're a natural bottom feeder.

When you constantly step in sh!t down there all the time get gets all over you and naturally that's what comes off of you.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
I must be smarter than these plants, since they are product of my hybridization. They only exist because I performed the requisite artificial pollination, and then grew the special seeds to maturity.

Credit: Dr. F.
What say you Werner?
WBraun

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
What I say?

That the crude amoeba example is only meant as "things are not always what they seem."

It's a poor example for the general audience here.

But if God wanted to work thru a simple amoeba there's no limit to what can be done.

Thus the "never underestimate what we're up against"

But since the conscientious general group here is atheistic and "there's no God" according them it's total nonsense to them.

But you get the idea.

If not, our brain cells and consciousness are worthless ......



Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
But if God wanted to work thru a simple amoeba there's no limit to what can be done.
Why doesn't he do it then

You speculate what he can do it, but we have proved that he hasn't done anything

If he did anything, then we could prove he did it, all we need to find is something that god did do.

GDDI
God did do it
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
WBraun

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
That one above is very beautiful.

You obviously put a lot a of love into your work.

And it shows.

Thus proves "the scientist is more important then the science".

You know the science very well.

But with out you, in the environment you put those species in, they would not survive.

Another crude example ......
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 7, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
Yes very beautiful Dr. You could say it is perceived therefore you are.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 7, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#293164
appearing on toast ... that must be a third rate amoeba
MH2

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Don Paul,

I would be careful about interpreting brain scans. Very local activity may be missed, stuff below the resolving power (in time or space) of the method. Decreasing activity in one part of the brain is often accompanied by increased activity in other parts because an inhibitory influence has been removed. Simple pictures of brain function as increases or decreases of activity in a particular region don't do justice to the complexity of the connections.


Humans are susceptible to experiences that we call religious or spiritual or transcendent. When I was a kid I got a whiff of gasoline and had the strangest feeling that it was trying to reveal an all-encompassing secret to me. Later when I heard where gasoline came from I had a secondary strange feeling that the critters who died to make the fossil fuel were trying to tell me something.


How or why natural selection would come up with that kind of weirdness I have no idea. It may just be noise in the system or it may be a signal from beyond our mundane existence. I do know that many other people have had powerful experiences that escape easy explanation. Such experiences can be induced by drugs, by traumatic events, by shamanistic exercises in deprivation and suffering, and also by quiet meditation or coming into the presence of beauty in nature.



I like this account by William James from 1874


I myself made some observations on . . . nitrous oxide intoxication, and reported them in print. One conclusion was forced upon my mind at that time, and my impression of its truth has ever since remained unshaken. It is that our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different.


Unfortunately, like psilocyborg, William James was unable to carry any actual revelation back into ordinary reality. For an example of what he did write down under the influence see

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/96may/nitrous/nitrous.htm
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 7, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
editing...
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 7, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Hey Base, what does the industry chatter and your Zendo say about eastern Nv. All dry holes or pay zones to come?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 7, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
Largo: ...they have a limited understanding of what true is.

The boldest statement Largo's made so far - very Braunian in scope.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 7, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Ed, doesn't this QCD and lQCD business also have something to do with discrete vs. analog and with there being issues trying to 'place' things on a lattice (and pardon me if that is instead complete jibberish)?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 7, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
Found the [paywalled] SciAm article I had read ("Is Quantum Reality Analog after All?") and it was apparently related to the inability to place [some? / all?] chiral fermions on a lattice...???

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