Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13421 - 13440 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
rrider

climber
Mckinleyville, Ca
Apr 16, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
As any climber knows, there are definitely going to be a few cracks somewhere in the universe.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Base:

Forget HHDL, he can't help any of us. All he can do is provide another interpretation. In an absolute sense, you're on your own.

I appear to be unclear about a particular point. Sound, rock, earthquake, and other objects are concepts that have been constructed consensually by experts. We all use concepts as a natural matter of course in our everyday lives.

Concepts are signaled with words. We take our concepts to be representative of objects in reality. But those concepts cannot FULLY represent reality. No thing--nothing--can fully represent reality. Concepts (in practice and in their development) are parsimonious descriptive renditions of phenomena. Being parsimonious, they include only bracketed pieces of reality. That "works," but only to a certain extent, within parameters. Indeed, the more stringent the parameters, the fewer things can be said that are meaningful, broad, or appreciable. Concepts are indeed useful and predictive, but they are not reality. They are abstractions.

Name a thing. Now tell me what the thing IS. Leave nothing out.

Hegel said that to properly describe a red ball, you would have to describe the rest of the universe.

Look at the wall in front of you. What color is it? OK? When I look at the wall in front of me, I see what appears to be almost an infinite gradation of colors. The more I look, the more I see. The color of my wall appears to be infinite, and by golly, it's actually changing as the light changes or as I breath and move. Although I painted the wall here with the very same gallon of paint with my own hands, there is this infinity right in front of my eyes. When I look into the corners, I see different shades of colors, even different colors altogether. The gradations are simply amazingly complex.

What is an earthquake? It's everything you say it is . . . and much more, more than anyone can say.

That you know a lot about geology does not mean you know all there is to know. No one could say what all there could be about it. No one, with no language. It's like cramming the ocean into a gallon ziplock bag. Ridiculous.

We're just little animals equipped with a very limited communication technology called language (which creates infinities all by itself--see Chomsky). Do you honestly know what things really are, even in your own field? With all due respect, Base, you might be over-reaching.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 16, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
Credit: TomCochrane
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 16, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm so sorry, Tom. I laughed so hard I cried and couldn't see the screen for the tears.

Thank you so much!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

M.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Apr 16, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
Tom, I think M. C. Escher used your 3 by 4's to build his staircases instead of the usual 2 by 4's!
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 17, 2013 - 12:25am PT
I know I harp on beliefs all the time here, but I too am a devotee to a belief. I believe in truth.

Whatever we're talking about, I'm interested to hear what is true. Not half, not almost, not mainly. TRUE. Totally true. Nothing left over. No residue. Just 100% true. Is that really so much to ask?

What is true, and how would you know it? How would you know what is--without a f*cking doubt in the universe--True? Capital T.

I don't care too much about the rest. Oh, sure, "sorta kinda true" is a little interesting, but really . . . how much time should I give to "kinda true?". . . and why? Sounds like just talking to me.

I am a little bit surprised that so many folks who argue for a scientific approach don't focus on what's completely true. (I'm unreasonable.)

I think I have a unique life. I think I should use it. Finding what is true is the only thing that seems to make my life worthwhile. The rest . . . well sure, "kinda interesting," . . . . . . . but not so much.

The only question I struggle with is: "how much am I willing to commit to finding what is true?" How far am I willing to go?

I want to say I'm all in, but I sense there is still some reservation in me. I'm not ready to absolutely let go.


Joke: There is this guy who has finds himself hanging on for dear life on the thinest of ledges on a sheer face. Credit card thin. He panics and yells for help. A voice above him comes to him that says, "Let go, Adam. I'll catch you." The climber says, "Who is that?" The voice replies, "It's God. Let go, and I'll catch you." The climber is silent for more than a few moments, and then yells out: "Is there anyone else up there?"
MH2

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 12:35am PT
So good, go-B!


What is true

If you ask that question, you immediately get into the issue of how to verify.
WBraun

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 01:20am PT
the truth. How would you know when you find it

And you guys are always so logic and reasoned?

Why no logic and reason used here?

We are part parcel of the whole truth.

When we come in contact with the "Truth" we are like the puzzle piece that fits into the whole.

This is how one naturally "sees" the "Truth" as the truth reveals itself .......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 17, 2013 - 03:02am PT
We're just little animals equipped with a very limited communication technology called language



no




each of us is a great expanse of spiritual awareness...




apparently oddly obsessed with a perishable little pink wiggly thing stuck in it like a pokeymon toy...





behold the wisdom of the turtle...
behold the wisdom of the turtle...
Credit: TomCochrane


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:50am PT
No. I like MikeL and I like listening to his ideas. We've talked offline and he is a good guy.

He is just trying to explain things in a very limited medium...typing.

I enjoy Mike's posts. He seems all in to me.

edit: At this point, most of the posters seem pretty familiar to me. These aren't the mean spirited and short sighted posts like you see on the political thread. They are thought out. I can't count the number of posts that I typed and didn't post because they didn't seem right.

I'll look at a wall today. I help a friend who was ravaged by a stroke, and I will be driving him up to the city for Doctor's appointments today. So I will stare at a wall. Can't hurt.

Mike is pretty experienced at this, so I enjoy it when he posts. The discussion falters when one camp takes over and yacks for twenty posts.

This prying and prodding helps us to arrive at the truth, and that is what Mike says he seeks. OK. I'm heading in that direction, but via a different path. I'm still interested in his path, though.

I've said it before. I've had these intense experiences that I have a hard time describing. It would be great if I could snap my fingers and have those experiences again.
MH2

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
BASE,

Have you read Bone Games by Rob Schultheis?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 17, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
Well, Tom's got me there. He's right.

I was trying to highlight the problem of language. Language is a limited technology, yet it can generate infinities (unendingly different strings of meaning). It's one of the reasons folks in cognitive science and AI were so interested in how people learn and understand language.

I'll take a hint from Ed. I don't mean to press Base unfairly. He, Tom, Jogill, Cintune, Go-B, Ed, MH2, Largo, Jan, Werner, Dr. F., and others here have the courage to put their ideas, values, and thoughts out here--alas even for ridicule sometimes. Kudos and Kowtow. It's almost always a pleasure.

Base you don't need to stare. Just notice. The more you notice, the more you notice.

My regards to your friend, Base. Man, lots of serious illness going around in my circles. Even me. Just got a CT confirmation that I have a growth in one of my lungs. Need to get a biopsy next. (Yuck.) At first, I was crest-fallen and obsessed about returning to a cancer ward for radiation, chemo, and maybe surgery one more time. Then, for some reason, this appeared: "Hey, it's just another amazing experience in front of you; check it out." Things got much quieter, and for a half a day, all I could see was my consciousness. That left me after 8 hours, but now I'm strangely chipper and upbeat. I shake my head at my own experience.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 17, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Sound, tree, pressure, rock, water, air, earthquakes, waves, data, velocities, epicenter, fluids, gas, core, area, world, universe . . . these are labels that you've applied to experience. . . when you have direct experience. But in fact, you have experiences of none of those things directly. What you have are perceptions, and you have assumed that your perceptions indicate those things which you have defined into existence. Sure, labeling is useful and can even help you make predictions, but all those things are concepts, theories, frameworks. Like Ed says: "provisional."


All of the above is also strictly beholden to the perceptional aperatai of human beings. As I've said, our discursive minds think the world is a kind of movie and it is what it is - real and selfsame - regardless of who is here to see it. But in fact said movie is almost entirely a projecting or our own minds, organizing experience and the undifferentiated flux out there (which IS real) ways that our brains can get hold of. BASE mentioned that he believes that when a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear, it still makes a sound. The question is: Where? A sound is not the excitation of waves. A sound is a word that objectifies a subjective audio experience. This is subtle thought.

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 17, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
My question is simple.

How do you even know that you exist, Mike? If you are going to doubt everything in the Universe, or at least how we perceive it (what is "IT") then it is perfectly natural to say this:

You are the only person in the Universe. Not only that, you aren't a person, nor do you have your own mind.

If we can't agree on sound, or the electronic spectrum, which is baby play for science, then how can you be sure that you know the truth about anything. Where do you draw the line at what is even real?

I asked this before: When you, and I guess I will throw JL into the mix, meditate, do you do it at a Metallica Concert or do you try to do it in a quiet place with few distractions from your human senses?

For all you know, this is a dream. This thread doesn't exist nor does the website, nor does the web, nor does the planet, nor does the universe.

For there to be the truth that you seek, there must be a medium in which truth exists. I would call it the universe, but what if you don't even live in a universe? How would you know? For that matter, how do you know that you aren't living in a cosmic zoo, 200 light years from Earth?

How do you know that that painted wall exists?

These are all valid questions if you doubt the existence of sound as real, and your interpretation of it is true.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
But in fact said movie is almost entirely a projecting or our own minds, organizing experience and the undifferentiated flux out there (which IS real) ways that our brains can get hold of.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
It is easy to be an enlightened guru on top of a mountain.

Maintaining that point of view in the city is like walking a razor's edge.

 Tom Brown Jr.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
Religion is about unreasoned but immutable and total adherence to a belief system. Climbing is about discovery and problem solving.....some correlations there,
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
Good point Tom and Tom!

I reached the place some years ago where it would have been much easier to go off to meditate somewhere unencumbered by possessions or relationships - so easy that it seemed like a cop out. Now I make slower progress due to worldly entanglements but I am also more useful, at least I feel so, to my fellow humans. Perhaps it is a cultural thing. Most western Buddhists are lay people, not monks.

Unfortunately as life stands now, most of us get wisdom only at the end of life when our active days are over. I like the idea of the Theravada Buddhists in places like Thailand where three years are spent on spiritual pursuits early in life, just after high school, to provide a reorientation before plunging ahead, a kind of national spiritual service.

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
We're not talking religion anymore Jim. It took us about 14,000 posts but we're onto other territory now, looking for new paradigms and new insights into old ones.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Nothing new...under the sun.
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