Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13261 - 13280 of total 22934 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MH2

climber
Mar 2, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Wow. The Frank Wilczek talk is great.
WBraun

climber
Mar 2, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Human beings are not animals.

It's when they fall down to animal consciousness in human bodies do they become moralists to having grown out of primate sociality.

A human being transcends the primate animal morality.

If not, then no human being anymore, just animal.

The whole world is becoming animal now .....
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 2, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
Some controversies in reincarnation:

1. Are humans created human or have they worked their way up from animal forms?
2. Once human can regression to an animal form occur?
3. Have some humans lived on other planets in the past?
4. Do some humans go to other lives on other planets after this one?
5. Do humans spend time in a non physical dimension between bodies?
6. Can some humans remember past lifes. If not, why not?
7. Can some humans choose their next life? If yes, then how?
8. What exactly reincarnates, the individual personality or something more amorphous with karma attached?
9. If one is tired of reincarnating, how does one stop the process?
10. Can individuals help other individuals in the process of reincarnating or stopping reincarnation?
11. Is reincarnation a totally impersonal force or can appeals to deities help?
12. How much are we prisoners/victims of our past lives, and how much free will do we have to overcome the effects of our past lives?


Differential Social Effects:

Some Advantages of Reincarnation

1. Each individual gets many chances instead of just one.
2. Ensures social justice eventually.
3. Encourages good behavior on the part of the unfortunate so they can look forward to a better future.
4. Because everyone has multiple chances, everyone can go at their own pace.
5. Because there is no rush, nobody needs to convert or force anybody to do anything.
6. Tolerance and non judgementalism tend to characterize reincarnation believing societies.
7. Societies that believe good works improve ones future reincarnation are charitable and pleasant to live in.
8. If one accepts that ones current life is a result of the past, it is easier to forgive those who have wronged us because we accept responsibility for our own situation.
9. if we accept responsibility for our position in life, we can then focus on being the best at whatever that position is rather than endlessly striving for something else.


Some Disadvantages of Reincarnation

1. The possibility of many lifetimes encourages some people to be lazy about their spiritual life and life in general.
2. The idea that ones present good fortune was earned in a past life leads some people to be callous toward the suffering of others.
3. The idea that the present life reflects the past, can justify ill treatment of the less fortunate.
4. The less fortunate can have a degraded, apathetic and pessimistic view of themselves based on this doctrine as well.
5. Over emphasis on past lives can cause some people to lose focus on this one and wander in fantasy.
6. People in favorable life situations in particular, can use reincarnation as a justification for their superior social and economic positions.

I do not know point for point how scientology's belief system stacks up against traditional Hindu or Buddhist beliefs on the subject (which are different from each other) and I'm not spending my time checking it out because of their differential effects on society.

As far as social effects are concerned, some of the reasons I find scientology lacking compared to traditional reincarnation religions, is the issue of tolerance and non judgmentalism. Even though they believe in reincarnation, the scientologists are not tolerant or non judgemental. They also are very tied to authoritarianism. Therefore even if their beliefs were the same, I would not be attracted to them because of the differential social effects.

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 2, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
Werner-

My favorite explanation for the current low level of consciousness of the human race is that we are becoming more animalistic as we extinct more and more species and those souls have to go somewhere. Thus we have more and more animals inhabiting human bodies!

Of course this idea could also be seen as a great insult to animals, given how low the human race has sunk.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 2, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
Human beings are not animals.

you're sure about that Werner? By sure I mean...... certain?


you may want to watch this:

http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/episode/the-secret-life-of-dogs.html
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 2, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
Werner: A human being transcends the primate animal morality.

Funny, some of us have been waiting for humans to transcend to the level of primate animal morality.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 2, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
How do you square reincarnation with human population growth?

Do viruses and bacteria reincarnate?

At what point up the hierarchy of life does reincarnation kick in?
WBraun

climber
Mar 2, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Human being and animal are two different.

You Google too much and observe too little.

Where you ever see a dog write a book for one simple example.

Bruce try and quiet your mind a little ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 2, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
Dolphins and whales have had brains bigger than ours for millions of years longer. They may not write books, but they definitely tell tales.

Gotta love these humans aren't animals folks. But of course you aren't a fundamentalist. Just where on dogmatic spectrum does one avoid the label?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 2, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
Where you ever see a dog write a book for one simple example.


Jan - are you following this? Wasn't it you who suggested I should be lauding werner for his dogged pursuit of the truth?

Well you got me there Werner. We know now at least that Fido did not in fact write the bible.
WBraun

climber
Mar 2, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
Anyone who accepts the body as the "self" is an animal .......
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 2, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Do viruses and bacteria reincarnate?
At what point up the hierarchy of life does reincarnation kick in?

Supposedly only sentient beings reincarnate, but defining that is tricky.

As for bacteria and viruses, I used to chuckle in Kathmandu at my Sherpa friends who wouldn't kill a bug but boiled to death multitudes of bacteria and viruses. Their philosophy was that if they didn't see it, they didn't worry about it.

This usually provoked a discussion about invisible germs versus invisible gods and ghosts. Touche.
Every good belief system has its logical limits.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2013 - 07:39am PT
Anyone who accepts the body as the "self" is an animal .......

Once again, Werner claims, only he knows how the universe works

I call my body "self", I am a animal??
What the hell does that mean, I guess it's the same as where you point when you say "me"

complete lunacy

Human being and animal are two different.

I have been arguing this debate since I was 14
They are the same
We are animal.... the end
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2013 - 07:52am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:50am PT
Werner,

Are there a finite number of souls? The population has exploded over the last 200 years.

M
WBraun

climber
Mar 3, 2013 - 10:23am PT
The soul is not material.

There are infinite number of souls.

Bacteria, virus are all are individual souls within their respective bodies.

The soul can transmigrate from body to different body after death according to it's consciousness.

The lower species move up.

Once human form is reached one can go higher or fall back down into the lower species according to ones develop consciousness in this life.

Dr F .... has a complete poor fund of knowledge of the soul and consciousness.

Thus Dr F remains as an animal in a human body.

Thus he remains as the "Terrible Scientist" .......
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2013 - 11:50am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Yes Werner
I am an Animal
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 3, 2013 - 11:54am PT
OK Werner, but I heard you say that humans are different from animals just a few posts back.

There are eastern religions that will not eat meat. I think that the logic is, that that cow may indeed be a person's soul.

Aside from that, I also prefer the eastern religions to the western ones. They don't seem to be so dogmatic and downright hostile. Buddhism requires no belief at all. It seems to me to be a way of living rightly, and from my readings of it, it's moral basis is very kind and pure in a way. I can't say the same for Scientologists who go around suing people who talk bad of them.

As for scientists being political, or having power, that usually isn't the case other than who runs a lab. We don't see them in politics very much.

Taking only the U.S. as an example, religion has always been deeply involved in politics. God is mentioned all of the time, and our elected representatives pray before opening each session.

Then they do nothing good.

Science isn't very good at political control. People who USE science can be good at it, though.

The Christian Right, which has exploded in the past thirty years and become downright hostile to science, has no problem with science if it gives them a better way to kill people. As I have said before, I had a real problem with my classmates who went into the defense industry. Pat Robertson uses science all of the time in his business empire, while at the same time dismissing it science when it is necessary. This is not a consistent moral view.

Our diplomacy, and most diplomacy in the past, has been enforced at the point of a gun. Why else would we have ten Nimitz Class aircraft carriers? Those suckers are designed by engineers, not scientists. That is the way it is with science. If it has an application, the engineers get their hands on it and build drones that kill. To be sure, these defense companies do hire pure scientists, and I don't like it.

The moral implications aside, our military spending is a waste of money.

So, you can call me a scientist, but that isn't what I do for a fair amount of my time. I live my life like most people do. I have my own set of morals and principles that I learned from others and have tweaked a little.

As for my comparing Scientology to Zen, and pissing Largo off, he had it coming for two years. He says that they aren't in the same ballpark, but all he has to do is explain why. I don't care how good his writing is (excellent) or how good or famous of a climber he is, he still has to communicate his ideas clearly and be able to defend them. That's all there is to it.

Do I think that they are comparable? I dunno. Like he said, I have no experience in them, much like he said. On the other hand, he loves to shred neuroscience and science in general, using the word "Scientism," which pisses me off to be honest.

I wasn't the one constantly yacking about Hilbert Space to make a point. I had never even heard of Hilbert Space, and when I looked it up and read about it, I could tell that it was waaaaaay beyond me.

That is a big boo boo. And yeah, I spent an hour or two watching the videos on the Scientologists website, and the whole thing sounds like bunk. There are errors of fact. When a way of life is built on errors of fact, man, you are almost beyond help. Scientology seems like a racket. For all I know it will convert the world eventually. I hope not.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 3, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
There's some yoga place around here, a chain with lots of yoga centers, that was using hidden cameras on the new recruits. They're lying on their mats with their eyes closed, the guru guy is telling them to drift off into another dimension, meanwhile the other guy behind the scenes is watching them on camera, scanning their faces. Anyone who looks like they really are drifting off into another dimension, they make a special effort, tell them they have natural ability, should be a yoga instructor, and next thing you know they donate their house to the yoga center. It's a true story and was a scandal a few years ago, I don't remember the name.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 3, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
The above stuff is nothing to me. The thing that I have to deal with on a regular basis is fracking, evolution, and creationism.

I go to these websites on occasion and it just blows my mind. I mentioned above that errors in fact must be resolved by any person.

The Intelligent Design or Creationists use downright falsehoods and pass it off as science. In that sense, it is as dangerous as scientology.

It is willful ignorance, and I have no tolerance for willful ignorance. These topics are things that I know a lot about, and the false explanations are pitiful. It is like holding your hands over your ears and screaming "Wha wha wha wha!!" over and over.

This is a good one:

http://www.creationism.org/

It has infected our political system and our education system.

This infection is based on errors of fact and willful ignorance. It is null. Anyone who falls for this is lost.

It would all go much easier if they would just admit that God was far more clever than what was explained in Genesis. The Universe is sooo much more interesting and complicated.
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