Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:13am PT
Of course the laws of thermodynamics are uniformally[sic] flawed, especially per the law of entropy

Explain. Show your work. References are required.

You punters either didn't read that this was taken from a web site (from a dude at CalTech) for you to look at for your own enjoyment, or not, but at least Ed caught the main point - that in the being realm or sphere, the whole thing is possible.

Explain? Said "sphere" is the open field of awareness through which all things rise and fall in all of our experience.

Show your work. As I've said 1,000 times, this is not a quantifying exercise, "work" as you know it belonging to realm of numbers, for which we all are well aware of your obsession.

References per said "sphere" are best achieved through actual practices. In this sphere, one doesn't get something for nothing - meaning it cannot be transmitted like a FAX.

I will pass on your questions per thermodynamics to my friend, who teaches it at CalTech. I personally found his angle interesting about how it dove-tailed into the "sphere," whereas science types will quite naturally glomb onto the part they are comfortable with.

Not that these matters are literally water and oil, but a certain awkwardnes seems present when the two are combined in any form I have seen.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
^^^^^^^^

"Children are investments."

(Sigh.)

The idea that people (God forbid, children) are investments is a oft-used symbol, but conceptualizing people as objects / things is a insidious and vicious notion that quickly gets out of hand. If you have investments, you are supposed to have returns. What would that be? Better human beings? (By what standards? The State's? Should I suppose "productivity" would be a proper return?)

Is this how anyone would like to be thought about by others? As an investment? I do grok the idea that others could be everyone's responsibility (sort of), but "investments?" I think that idea needs to be thought through to its ugly end.

Return to the humanities. That's where human beings get talked about in a more proper fashion.

Thinking of people as human resources (investments, e.g.) is a sign of just how far we've gone down the road of quantification, objectification, typification. Not everything should be objectified or quantified. Quantification and objectivity has its place--just not the whole place, please.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Come on. She was talking about government spending on all our kids. The Fox News people snip it and make it sound like she is wanting to steal your kids.

I'm a parent and can relate. It took so much effort and care to raise a man. You could call it an investment. I call it an obligation.

When you have children, all things must stand aside. It is the most important thing that you will ever do.

I lucked out. He is doing great in college, makes friends easily, all that stuff. I'm very proud.

I have learned one thing. Not all men are created equal. The public schools in the rich part of town are far better off than in the poor part of town. Which vagina you fall from decides a lot about your future in this world. We won the vaginal lottery.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Which vagina you fall from decides a lot about your future in this world. We won the vaginal lottery.

excellent point

and we should add that children should choose their parents very carefully
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
References per said "sphere" are best achieved through actual practices. In this sphere, one doesn't get something for nothing - meaning it cannot be transmitted like a FAX

Inscrutable.

;>}

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

photo not found
Missing photo ID#297817

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God

Ephesians 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.


The Final Victory will be at the Coronation and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb when we're in Heaven's home for good and in our new digs, the place prepared by the Father and Jesus for us! I HOPE to see you there!
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
copy, paste, scan.
Is that what Jesus would do?
Not the jesus that talks to me

he said, I speak through you Dr. F
go forward and spread my gospel!
But don't ever cut and paste, write thouth the words the cometh to your head, like the one youth tpyeth nowth, If youth haveth any questions of the other sideth, well you can forgeth that Jebusth will tellth youeth of these secrets, theyth are biblical trufphs, and only we can control the other side..

I said no thanks, try that scam on someone else
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
welcome back Gobee!

I missed ya
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
You cannot say that for others' minds, hearts, or souls. You can only say that for yourself.
Mike L.

Mike, I am offended that you took my words out of context.

I said explicitly that Only Some will be able to accept Jesus as a path or beleif system, and some will not. Me being one of them.

here are my words exactly
Me, along with several Billion others have heard the name Jesus
and it didn't do a thing for us, and no matter how hard we try to believe in Jesus, nothing will change for us.

Never did I say that I was talking for anyone other myself, and several billion others.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:54pm PT

References per said "sphere" are best achieved through actual practices. In this sphere, one doesn't get something for nothing - meaning it cannot be transmitted like a FAX

Inscrutable.
-

Maybe this will make better sense.

I've said plenty of times that experiential adventures require just as specialized an approach as science, art, or any other legitimate study. It's much like climbing. Some people have natural talent, but even those have to practice to achieve their potential.

This simple fact is not widely accepted by people on this thread. Rather than do the work required by virtually all known paths, they expect to simply noodle the subject, "think about it," and render a verdict based on - what, I'm not sure, since the experiential realm is really and truly the experiential realm, and on some level, everything else is just talk.

The data, so to speak, is not a numerical or symbolic stream, but rather it is embedded in the immediacy of the experience itself, and whatever awareness we might bring to it. We can't gather the info and FAX it to someone else to ponder. We would do so immediately if it worked, but it don't. Ever. People expecting it to work, that the depths traversed in the experiential are open to cognitive musings minus the experience are, in fact, expecting something for nothing - for no investment or time, energy, commitment, or sincere effort.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
True enough, but you see what you're up against with that analogy, right? If I watch someone flash a 5.12, it's immediately obvious that they've done the work or got the genes for it. But if someone just tells me about what a badass climber they are and explains how hard they train, but I never see any proof, well....

I suppose you could post a video of yourself sitting and achieving whatever inner state, but even that... it's just too subjectively experiential to get across. There were those lamas Alex David-Neel met up with who did the astral flying, snow-melting, bending swords and whatnot for her, a little more on the shamanic side that, but at least it was something to bridge the evidentiary gap.
WBraun

climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
There were those lamas Alex David-Neel met up with who did the astral flying, snow-melting, bending swords and whatnot for

This shows you haven't even the slightest tiniest inkling of what spiritual is at all.

Those events you listed are all material manifestations by manipulating the material energies that modern science has no clue how.

There's many who know how to manipulate the material energy and to the untrained they think it's spiritual.

Thus we continually see your useless running mouth that shows nothing but pure ignorance.

Keep posting all your stupid cartoons and youtube.

That's all you do and know, mūḍha .....

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/space-station-may-test-spooky-entanglement-over-largest-230353588.html

"Spooky" quantum entanglement connects two particles so that actions performed on one reflect on the other. Now, scientists propose testing entanglement over the greatest distance yet via an experiment on the International Space Station.

Until now, entanglement has been established on relatively small scales in labs on Earth. But now physicists propose sending half of an entangled particle pair to the space station, which orbits about 250 miles (400 kilometers) above the planet.

"According to quantum physics, entanglement is independent of distance," physicist Rupert Ursin of the Austrian Academy of Sciences said in a statement. "Our proposed Bell-type experiment will show that particles are entangled, over large distances — around 500 km — for the very first time in an experiment."

Ursin and his colleagues detail the proposed experiment today (April 9) in the Institute of Physics and German Physical Society's New Journal of Physics. [Wacky Physics: The Coolest Little Particles in Nature]
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
This shows you haven't even the slightest tiniest inkling of what spiritual is at all.

Those events you listed are all material manifestations by manipulating the material energies that modern science has no clue how.

There's many who know how to manipulate the material energy and to the untrained they think it's spiritual.

Thus we continually see your useless running mouth that shows nothing but pure ignorance.

Keep posting all your stupid cartoons and youtube.

That's all you do and know, mūḍha .....

Okay, man, thanks for clearing that up.

And you can keep parroting Prabhupada, for all that's worth.
MH2

climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
We can't gather the info and FAX it to someone else to ponder.


Can you specify which info cannot be gathered?

If we go back a ways in time, our ancestors probably did not have speech as we do today. From a person's words, tone of voice, gestures and facial expressions we surely can learn a little of their experience.

More recently we have developed writing, photography, audio recording, and movies. I don't see why future technology could not record and replay the same information your senses pick up.

Text, pictures, and audio today are stored and transmitted as numbers but that has little to do with the feelings they give to an audience. If in the future we can record, transmit, and recreate experiences, you probably won't be any more aware of the underlying quantification than you are when you look at the pictures of Dr. F.'s cacti.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
why can't you fly Werner?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:51am PT
Many of us have a great deal of experience with this sort of existence, though we might not have embarked on formal study and practice.


Solid post, Ed, IMO. I probably should have rephrased that to say that not many people on this thread appreciate the crucial nature of formal study and practice around established teachers, an attitude downright daffy and incomprehensible in any other walk of life. Whenever we want to know something, we go to the experts. But to many here, me sense of it is that in the experiential realm, all men are equal since all men experience. So what's the dif, right? Cintune wants to see some tangible proof of "attainment," while Craig wants a DVD of God - or ALL spirituality, for all time, is bunkum.

Try this angle per "experts." Experiential arts will typically start with exercises to steady our attention, which tends to wander aimlessly. Try the simple sounding exercise of counting your breath, saying the number with each inhale and each exhale, starting with a new number each exhale. Do this up to, say, 100. Trick: Pull your awareness down into your belly, and away from your head or you'll never get past 20 before a thought yanks you away.

And this is just the kiddy pond stuff.

JL
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