High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 11, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
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Amongst other pablum, the ol lunk wrote,
men's salvation is an idea old as Artesian wells and quite obviously it has never panned out Reframing it...
With education and training in (a) the facts (e.g., how the world works) and (b) life strategies that work... higher performance in the art of living is achievable.
I hope you like crow. In a few years, you'll be eatin' some. ;)
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Feb 11, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
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It is likely that the prescription for doing the calculation might be based on some abstract notions, like Hilbert space, whose virtue is to provide a means of doing the calculation*. The successful theory is not one in which elaborates on each mechanical gear cog engages the next one, but the theory which is predictive
* Exactly, and even then various aspects of the math used are not rigorously proven . . . but they work. So even the mathematical cogs and gears aren't all in place!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 11, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
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jogill-
I personally don't see referring to someone as competent as an insult? Sorry if it was perceived that way.
I am interested in the mathematical world view and how it might differ from something like particle physics. Unfortunately, I never had a mathematics teacher who could articulate what the over all point of it all was. Instead I was subjected to the memorize this formula and then this one and this one and the test is on Wednesday and maybe if you get good at it some day you can build a bridge approach.
I was very struck while watching the tv show Numbers, when Charlie, the math guy, made the statement, "Math is the language of the universe". I had never heard that expressed before and somehow it made the whole enterprise much more interesting.
So yes, I'd be interested in the mathematical view of the universe and why it seems to be describable that way especially if it is now perceived that there is no God who is a mathematician.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 11, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
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And speaking of cannon balls,
If Hilbert space is too abstract, consider the square root of a negative number. What is it and what does it mean? Can't really say, but the concept can be made use of in calculation, and was used as early as 400 years ago to provide perfectly good solutions to 3rd degree polynomial equations, by the first mathematician to apply math to the flight of cannon balls.
Niccolò Fontana Tartaglia
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Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
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Feb 11, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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whoa - things are getting freaky now.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 11, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
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jogill -- "So even the mathematical cogs and gears aren't all in place!"
That's what I said many posts back as "missing ingredients".
Once they understand the science of the soul, then ...
All the cogs and gears fall into place .......
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 11, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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t is likely that the prescription for doing the calculation might be based on some abstract notions, like Hilbert space, whose virtue is to provide a means of doing the calculation. The successful theory is not one in which elaborates on each mechanical gear cog engages the next one, but the theory which is predictive.
--------
Let me get clear on this. Are you saying that in the string of events from A, to B (and per B, we can forecast or predict things about it to a remarkable degree) there involves gear cogs that DO NOT engage each other and are not subject to physical laws or a linear progression moving forward in time? Are there things in your experience that have no "cause," at a distance or otherwise? Or are you saying that the "how," the progressing from one thing to the next, cog gears or otherwise, in not "important," rather only the prediction.
I also get the feeling that Ed is saying in the real world, we don't have a linear causal chain, rather this is just a model for looking at the progression and morphing of forms and matter reacting to gravity and so forth. If that is the case, then reductionism makes no sense and bottom-up causality is also just a construct not existing in the real world.
JL
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Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
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Feb 11, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Once they understand the science of the soul, then ...
All the cogs and gears fall into place .......
Straight out of The Volkswagen Maintenance Guide for the Complete Idiot
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 11, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
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If that is the case, then reductionism makes no sense and bottom-up causality is also just a construct not existing in the real world.
"bottom-up causality" is what you make of it... for instance, after Maxwell formulated his famous equations of Electrodynamics he believed his major remaining task was to identify the "luminiferous aether."
This was thought to be required by very good arguments made by Newton that light had to be corpuscular, arguing that since its speed was very fast, and the velocity of waves moving through a medium is faster with a more dense medium, is contradicted by the fact that light travels from the Sun to the Earth, yet the orbit of the Earth is accurately described in terms of a body moving through the vacuum.
The contradiction being that the medium has to be dense and has to be vacuum at the same time.
But so much work had been done on the property of light that its wave behavior was undisputed, it was a wave. And not only that, but Maxwell derived the wave equation from his formula and showed that the speed of the electromagnetic wave was the speed of light, therefore, light was an electromagnetic wave.
This was demonstrated by a heroic series of experiments done by Heinrich Hertz beginning in 1886.
From the wonderful book (though technical) by E. T. Whittaker A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity( http://archive.org/details/historyoftheorie00whitrich ):
"The model of the electromagnetic field to which Maxwell arrived by the introduction of this device greatly resembles that proposed by Bernoulli in 1736.* He supposed a layer of particles, acting as idle wheels, to be interposed between each vortex and the next, and to roll without sliding on the vortices; so that each vortex tends to make the neighbouring vortices revolve in the same direction as itself. The particles were supposed to be not other-wise constrained, so that the velocity of the centre of any particle would be the mean of the circumferential velocities of the vortices between which it is placed."
tortured... but eventually we find:
"Maxwell's views were presented in a more developed form in a memoir entitled "A Dynamical Theory of the Electromagnetic Field," which was read to the Royal Society in 1864; in this the architecture of his system was displayed, stripped of the scaffolding by aid of which it had been first erected."
that scaffolding being the various mechanical models he created to explore what was going on, in a manner he could understand and make meaningful progress with.
In the end, we know we do not need the aether, as the form of the electromagnetic wave propagation is transverse, not longitudinal... and can occur in a vacuum, thus the resolution of the Newtonian criticism.
But it is interesting how long that model held sway on physics, with even Maxwell, who's equations have not had to have been altered one bit, had the solution sitting, literally, in front of his nose.
The dynamical theory has an explanation of the field propagation that you can setup as being a causal network... but you do not have to... you have the wave equations to do that for you.
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go-B
climber
Hebrews 1:3
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Feb 12, 2013 - 06:15am PT
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John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
 Missing photo ID#289287
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
...AMEN!
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Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
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Feb 12, 2013 - 08:31am PT
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Or...... the best one I heard so far is replace him (Ratshitslinger that is) with the Dalai Lama.
Can you imagine if someone started a petition to do just that and it got a couple of billion signatures? What statement would that make about the morality of the Vatican and its leadership?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 12, 2013 - 08:41am PT
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That's fun to imagine!
(Oops, that's right-brain, multi-radiant, definitely "nonlinear" creative, isn't it? so I wonder how I imagined that? esp in all those sounds and colors!)
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go-B
climber
Hebrews 1:3
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Feb 12, 2013 - 08:53am PT
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Science
"Let me explain the problem science has with religion ."The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'
'Yes sir,' the student says.
'So you believe in God?'
'Absolutely '
'Is God good?'
'Sure! God's good.'
'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'
'Yes'
'Are you good or evil?'
'The Bible says I'm evil.'
The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'
'Yes sir, I would.'
'So you're good...!'
'I wouldn't say that.'
'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'
The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'
'Er..yes,' the student says.
'Is Satan good?'
The student doesn't hesitate on this one.. 'No.'
'Then where does Satan come from?'
The student falters. 'From God'
'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'
'Yes, sir.'
'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'
'Yes'
'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything,then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'
Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'
The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'
'So who created them ?'
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'
The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'
'No sir. I've never seen Him.'
'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'
'No, sir, I have not.'
'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'
'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'
'Yet you still believe in him?'
'Yes'
'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say to that, son?'
'Nothing,' the student replies.. 'I only have my faith.'
'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? '
' Yes.
'And is there such a thing as cold?'
'Yes, son, there's cold too.'
'No sir, there isn't.'
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'
'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'
'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'
'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'
'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'
'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'
'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. 'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so... So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'
'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?' Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'
To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'
The professor sat down.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 12, 2013 - 08:54am PT
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of course the corruption of being in a position from which you can use that position in a coercive manner is an unfortunately prevalent aspect of human behavior. In hierarchies the behavior can become institutionalized.
The NYTimes had this unfortunate report:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/world/asia/zen-buddhists-roiled-by-accusations-against-teacher.html
which is more a comment on human behavior than on religious/philosophical teaching...
while people may wish to have a life enriched by spiritual teaching, it is clear that the teachers could prey on the students... and with devastating effect when it contradicts the very teaching. It is the flip side of being "trusting" and having "faith."
Science can be accused of apparent lack of a spiritual dimension that can be fulfilling to people on a daily basis, but it does recognize that human behavior is factor in human relationships of any kind. Where science can go wrong, or at least scientific institutions, is when the claim of equality is made that flies in the face of objective evidence. Here most famously the study at MIT on gender bias: http://web.mit.edu/gep/about.html
At least, so confronted, MIT has taken steps to account for such human behavior.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 12, 2013 - 08:59am PT
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Science says we have no brain??
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 12, 2013 - 09:03am PT
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go-B reposts a hypothetical that floats around the web and surfaces here from time to time...
...usually to make the point that a number of lines of thought (post modernism too!) that science is just another line of thought.
While it appeals, it is hardly a workable philosophy, in the case of that argument, you cannot know something if you do not sense it directly... it was the case that the Inquisition made against Galileo... "you cannot experience the putative moons of Jupiter directly, so how can you say they actually exist?"
You see, the moon's of Jupiter are just another means by which a man's faith in the doctrine of the Church can be perverted... obviously evil is at work here.
I would suggest that go-B forgo the use of technologies brought about by science, and refrain from using the internet as it is obviously an instrument for doing evil...
...and perhaps he can also forgo modern medicine...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 12, 2013 - 09:05am PT
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go-b's post, I think, illustrates perfectly how one can use religious reasoning and rhetoric to advance Abrahamic mythology down through the generations. Thank goodness it's the 21st century now, reasoning standards are higher, and people - most esp young college educated ones - can see through this under-developed "low-information" bs.
Nonetheless it gets credit: it's the only post I've read of his in last 200.
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go-B
climber
Hebrews 1:3
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Feb 12, 2013 - 09:11am PT
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...and perhaps he can also forgo modern medicine...
to me God is the reason for living this life and
I would not want to live forever without God!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 12, 2013 - 09:43am PT
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FYI,
(1) It's Darwin Day.
(2) Darwin has recently replaced Dickens on the British ten pound note.
Imagine...
(1) Darwin on a U.S. $10 bill. (I don't think gobe would support this.)
.....
P.S. There's also a push to put Alan Turing on the british note - (a) for his professional achievements also (b) for how he was treated (chemical castration) by the British gov regarding his sexuality (homosexuality was illegal at the time; he was prosecuted).
btw, to the naysayers and deniers, this is an example, one example of countless ones, of higher performance in living through increased education in how life works. "Knowing better is doing better."
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