Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13221 - 13240 of total 22768 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 28, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
As an aside, I got interested in the state of cloning in a discussion somewhere and did some light reading.

Many mammals have been cloned.

Funny. A clone is like an identical twin. You will look alike and share many traits, but you aren't EXACTLY alike.

The guy who cloned a whole herd of cows said that they went through typical cow social structure. A cow developed into the lead cow, etc. Although they shared the same DNA, they did not grow up to have the same personality traits.

What this means is that if you save some of your DNA so that you can be cloned in the future, "you" won't come back. It will be another guy who is your identical twin, and will mature differently.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 28, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
Tom, appreciate the answer, but you still seem to be hedging quite a bit with respect to any statement about the role of current knowledge and logic irrespective of 'investigations' regardless of who's doing them. From my perspective you could send Albert Einstein or Al Giddings to Loch Ness and it wouldn't matter as the ecological and basic biological aspects of the proposition just don't pencil out.

Sort of like the guy who is talking about a manned Mars mission in 2018. Now it could just be me - and I don't have fraction of expertise in that realm as you - but that seems like more than a stretch to me, even without any further investigation.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 28, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
It is difficult to distinguish the basic ideas of Scientology with other "reincarnation" beliefs,

This is only because you haven't looked at any of them seriously. It's like a humanities person saying that physics and oceanography are indistinguishable because they both use math.

Better to just say you don't know the difference and you're not motivated to find out.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 28, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Doesn't really seem like much of a distinction from this:

http://www.scientology.org/faq/scientology-beliefs/reincarnation.html
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 28, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
And you take as littoral truth what any religious organization posts on its web page?
After first disassociating that organization from its historical and cultural roots?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 28, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
you still seem to be hedging quite a bit with respect to any statement about the role of current knowledge and logic irrespective of 'investigations' regardless of who's doing them.

I know enough to understand what tiny slices of observations form the underpinnings of 'our current knowledge.' You are asking me to commit my reputation to concepts of which I am not certain. I have looked into some of these things rather extensively because of my interest in aviation and space travel. And yes, I am hedging because I just don't know. It is amazing how much information and discussion is out there on some of these subjects vs how much real world observing most people do. And there are a lot of people who have staked their reputations on both sides of these issues.

I have spent quite a lot of time in the air and up in the mountains under the stars and observing the heavens with pretty good telescopes. I have observed thousands of meteors and auroras and human space vehicles. And yes, I've seen a few things not easily explained, including a rather bright persistent light seen through my telescope on the surface of the moon during the run up to LCROSS; and a bright 'meteorite' that made a sharp right angle turn as seen from high in the Tetons; and a very bright 'planet' to the north where there shouldn't be one, as seen from a small sailboat out in the Atlantic. But I wouldn't know how to convince anyone other than myself as to these observations.

I do know enough about Dennis Tito that if he offered me a seat on a trip to Mars, I'd be very happy to accept. Two time Lunar astronaut John Young told us he was a perfect candidate for the trip because he's too old to worry about whether he'd be coming back...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:22am PT
So let's try this another, less committing way. What do you suppose the odds are of surmounting logistical challenges alone to launch a manned Mars mission in 2018?

a) 0%
b) 25%
c) 50%
d) 75%
e) 100%

[ Repeat with inter-dimensional Sasquatch, Nessie, and the existence of high-performance Nazi flying disks, and a very bright unknown planet in our solar system... ]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:17am PT
Well, Dennis Tito is talking about an Apollo 8 style loop around Mars with no landing intended, which greatly simplifies the logistics over a lander mission. The math is pretty complex for a slingshot around Mars, but well understood for designating the launch window. The trip will take advantage of the alignment of heavenly bodies in January 2018 to fly around Mars and return to Earth in the relatively short time of 501 days. The same opportunity will not arise again until 2031.

There are several contemporary heavy launch vehicles capable of throwing the mass out there. The obvious candidates are SpaceX Falcon 9, Russian Proton, Lockheed Atlas V, Boeing Delta IV, ESA Ariane 5, Chinese Shenzhou(check WalMart inventory); but others could be considered such as the Japanese H2 and Indian GSLV.

There are also several candidates for a human-rated vehicle. The best candidate would again be the SpaceX Dragon with an attached service module. The NASA contracted Boeing Orion would be fine, but probably not ready/available in that time frame unless Dennis bought one incomplete and rushed through outfitting it for the mission. Several NASA old timers including John Young did an evaluation as to whether an old Apollo spacecraft could be dug out of a museum and used. The answer was yes, except we just don't do that sort of engineering any more! The Russian Soyuz that Dennis Tito rode up to the Space Station could do the job with one of their service modules launched separately on a Proton and mated in orbit, but the living quarters are awfully cramped.

There are other options that could be contrived, however I understand the current plan is a SpaceX Dragon on top of the SpaceX Falcon 9. I studied this design as one of NASAs reviewers and attended a nine-engine firing test. Elon Musk has had Mars in his sights for this vehicle from the start.

The worst part of the challenge is the astronauts will experience extreme bone loss and basically be jelly fish upon their return. This is one of the main challenges on the space station, and we currently limit crews to six months, which is plenty bad enough.

Perhaps this could be mitigated by tethering the spacecraft to the service module and setting them spinning to induce artificial gravity. This has been somewhat tested with satellites in space but not made operational for humans. Space tethers deserve serious further development for several reasons.

So can this be done?? Oh Yeah!

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 1, 2013 - 02:53am PT
how long does an organization have to be around for it's historical routes to acquire authority?

given that reincarnation is a very old idea, why is there any authority in the fact that the idea has been around for a long time?

Excellent questions both. I always caution my students about the use of the word cult. Today's cult can become in a generation or two, an accepted and respected religion. I think the Mormons are a good example of this. Two thousand years ago all Christians would have been considered cultists. Probably Zen was considered a cult by more traditional Buddhists at one time.

So how to measure the difference if we don't believe in any religion or don't know the difference between them and don't want to check it out. The answer in this case is not based on respective dogma but rather, their societal outcomes.

Zen has produced a wonderfully unique art and culture and I have never heard of anyone persecuted because they left that form of Buddhism or Buddhism altogether. There have been accusations however, that Zen was too close to the military establishment in Japan (not India or China) right up through WWII.

Scientology however, has been involved in many controversies, alleged kidnappings and brain washings, and law suits. No particular culture can be ascribed to it, as the teachings frequently changed. It's founder is quoted as saying that the easiest way to make money in America is to form a tax exempt religion. They charge for their teachings which is considered bad form by almost all relgions. It's main cultural contribution seems to be its celebrity converts who rail against things like women making noise in childbirth and psychiatry. It's pretty well known also that children have been turned against and cut off all ties with, the non believing parent as in Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman's children.

Length of time doesn't indicate truth necessarily but it does provide a record for the non dogmatic aspects of a religion to be judged on.Thus the Amish while typically a cult, are not thought of in those terms, because 300 years has proved them harmless to anyone but themselves and that's their choice.

No doubt scientology's belief in reincarnation bears some similarity to Buddhism. But why go with a recent, ever changing, politically controversial, form of reincarnation which is languages, continents, and millenia away from the original? In this regard, religion and science are at odds. Perhaps because religion is so much older, most things have been thought of and tried already. Innovation is not likely to improve on the past. In science of course, after 300 years, there is much to be discovered still and innovation does provide better answers
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 1, 2013 - 04:23am PT
Oh yeah, all these religions are time-tested truths. They get more credibility over time because no one can disprove them. Its more like Dawkins says, viruses of false ideas that have taken hold and have a life of their own. The driving force for all of it is people's fear of death. One of the main promises of religions is immortality. They all promise it in one way or another. Thats the hook. It's not that people are trying to determine how the universe was created and this is their theory. They're scared of death and have no meaning in their lives so con men move in to tell them what they want to hear.

On the other hand though I don't think you're going to find the meaning of life by studying the mechanics of how the brain works. That may be the machine that makes consciousness possible but there's no denying that you feel like an independent being, you're "you" and you have no way to explain this feeling, which people want to interpret as some kind of supernatural soul. Sorry, but just as I am sure you're conscious now, even though I can't directly measure it, I'm also sure that when the lights go out, you won't be. You're not going to live on as some abastract entity like the pythagorian theorem. You won't exist at all. That's the part that freaks people out and why they'll follow anyone who promises them a better deal.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 1, 2013 - 04:33am PT
Please note that I was not talking about whether these religious beliefs are true or not. As a social scientist I was talking about their differential roles in society and their long term effects.

Religion can be studied from many vantage points, the truth of their teachings being only one such vantage.
MH2

climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 08:59am PT
Thanks for the direction to that material, Ed. The first link sets the scene with a huge study of how the tiniest of changes in our DNA can change our mentality. The several types of calcium channel have pivotal roles in nerve and muscle.

Then the test of placing people with no previous diagnosis of mental disorder into a psychiatric setting to see if the system can tell the difference. How little we really know, or how little use we make of what we do know?

An example of Catch-22, in my opinion; we had a nursing home resident who had a diagnosis of bipolar disorder and was given large doses of sedatives morning, noon, and night. In nursing school we were told to see the person, not just the diagnosis, but when we went to our Clinical Nurse Specialist to ask if it would be reasonable to have the sedatives reduced we were told that it could not be done, because the person was bipolar. That diagnosis was a life sentence. The meds alone would make a person behave oddly but because the person was behaving oddly they couldn't be taken off the meds.

Some facilities do gradually reduce medications when they get a new patient and then add them back if the symptoms they were supposed to control reappear.
MH2

climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 09:03am PT
You're not going to live on as some abastract entity like the pythagorian theorem.


Unless you were Pythagoras.

Smiley face
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 1, 2013 - 11:38am PT
Tom: So can this be done?? Oh Yeah!

I understand it can be done - no one I know is questioning that assumption - what is being questioned is whether it can be done in / by 2018.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 1, 2013 - 11:41am PT
Jan: So how to measure the difference if we don't believe in any religion or don't know the difference between them and don't want to check it out. The answer in this case is not based on respective dogma but rather, their societal outcomes.

Now I'm confused. It seems like a simple enough proposition to me: minor semantics aside, either you believe in reincarnation or you don't. What do "societal outcomes" have to do with that basic proposition?
WBraun

climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
either you believe in reincarnation or you don't

No

Either it is a fact or not.

Believing it is or not doesn't work.

But, regardless, it's a bonfide fact whether you believe or not.

All you can do otherwise is deny it.

That won't work either .....
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
We can go to Mars, but 2018 is too soon to do a good job at it.

I've heard it said that a trip to Mars will be a one way trip. I'd take that trip in a heartbeat. It isn't like our species hasn't been sending others to certain death for millenia. I would call it a fair bargain.

Once you leave the Earth's magnetosphere, you will enter a very harsh radiation environment. Solving that will be difficult. Ed, sure you can shield with lead or even your water supply, but some radiation will still get through, and over a long period a human body will get quite whack from high energy cosmic rays. These aren't little gamma rays. They can be big particles such as a proton, moving close to the speed of light. Cosmic rays are extremely energetic. Ed, please explain...

I agree with Ed that manned spaceflight isn't a good value for your dollar. NASA's launch schedule over the past year or two has included a number or Earth orbiting missions that closely monitor things such as climate and weather. The results are stunning, and if you like Nova on PBS, there was a recent 2 hour episode on this.

One of my friend's is now working with NASA and others on hurricanes. The new satellites are seeing structure in hurricanes that is entirely new, which is odd, because hurricane's are studied to death.

Nature is like that. From the time that Galileo built his first telescope and looked at the sky, every generation of more powerful telescopes has been showing us more and more.

I'm worried that if the right wing nuts take over, it will be the end of pure research. It has been getting harder and harder to get NSF funding for quite a few years now. At the same time, the military wastes untold billions of dollars on their research.

The military isn't just the military itself. It is all of the contractors who employ tens of thousands of people. Eisenhower's warning about the military industrial complex is true. Just drive around Laurel, Maryland, on the outskirts of the NSA, and check out Boeing, Lockheed, and other contractors. They have their own exits on the interstate.

Our budget for spy satellites is huge, perhaps as much as NASA's launch budget. Just google up NRO and you will see the spy satellite arm of the U.S. Then go to NASA or Vandenburg and check out the launch schedule. They list which ones are classified. What is in them is unknown to us.

In my mind, every dime spent on a military is embezzled from us.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Werner: [Reincarnation,] either it is a fact or not.

Well lookey there will ya, something we agree on!

Ed: The costs of sending people to Mars seems to outweigh the benefit in my mind.

It's the same deal with most manned fighter missions.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Tom,

Apollo 8 actually did a burn and did 10 orbits of the moon. They did another burn to return to Earth after that.

I believe the only figure 8 trip that was a true slingshot was with Apollo 13.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
No doubt scientology's belief in reincarnation bears some similarity to Buddhism. But why go with a recent, ever changing, politically controversial, form of reincarnation which is languages, continents, and millenia away from the original? In this regard, religion and science are at odds. Perhaps because religion is so much older, most things have been thought of and tried already. Innovation is not likely to improve on the past. In science of course, after 300 years, there is much to be discovered still and innovation does provide better answers

In other words, religion in all its forms is just another commodity that is packaged into something you find desirable which you buy. If reincarnation has a stronger appeal to your ideals (freuds ID) than say eternal life in heaven then you narrow the choices down and if those unsavory scientologists don't quite have enough "historical legitimacy" then you're going to have to go to those mysterious groovy eastern things. Like all consumer products, the religions with greatest marketing program and customer loyalty have the greatest "authority".

Cigarettes at one time were as much an unassailable "authority" of american culture as gun ownership. All was fine and dandy until one day it was discovered that they were an addictive poison and much of the percieved benefits had to do with nothing more substantive than illusion and mythology. In fact, once clinically and objectively deconstructed, the only real benefit left standing was that all that illusion and mythology supported a vast economic / political engine that if destroyed would mean a whole lot of people would be out of a job, but then when factoring the health costs that so -called benefit pops like a balloon as well. The mythology, illusion and political power of the Tobacco industry is not quite as powerful an "authority" as it once was and interestingly enough, the world didn't end.

The fact is, as Werner started to point out, it dosn't matter what you believe it only matters what is fact. That may be not true now so long as belief does not critically conflict with real world facts, but sooner or later it will if the facts are not on your side. Werner then followed this self evident truth with the statement "reincarnation is a fact" which unless I am much mistaken about the degree of evidence that supports it, is a self evident untruth.

Well maybe some day we will be able to test and demonstrate how factual such a notion is, and of course until then such a "belief" is fairly harmless and cannot be denied with certainty anyway, so like cigarettes once were regarded, there is currently no need to get all bent out of shape about it.
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