Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
From "The Rocks don't lie, A geologist investigates Noah's Flood"
By David Montgomery

which proves that there was Never a great flood, and the Noah's Ark fairy tale is just another pagan myth that the bible included as the "word of God"

The scientific story of the origin and evolution of life, the vast sweep of geologic time, and the complexity of the processes that shaped the world we know today inspire more awe and wonder than the series of one-off miracles from Genesis that I read about in Sunday School. Miracles do not fuel curiosity or innovation. If we embrace the claim that the earth is a few thousand years old, we must also throw out the most basic findings of geology, physics, chemistry and biology. The concept of geologic time, on the other hand, opens up an entirely new creation story, along with the idea that world is unfinished and creation is ongoing. And a complex, evolving world is one we would be well advised to do our best to understand.

Personally, I find a world that invites exploration and learning more inspiring than a world where all is known... yet no honest search for the truth can deny geological discoveries-not when the Earth's marvelous story is laid out for all to see in the very fabric of our world. We may argue endlessly about how to interpret the bible, but rocks don't lie. They tell it like it was.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 3, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
If we embrace the claim that the earth is a few thousand years old, we must also throw out the most basic findings of geology, physics, chemistry and biology.
Giving rise to an anti-science disposition.
jstan

climber
Apr 3, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
damn you for that picture of the torn jeans

I have found an effective countermeasure for that problem. You just concentrate your attention on something of more interest. In the case of that picture I noticed her excellent ape index. There is no telling what she might be able to do if you could get her on a climb.

And I think you are onto something when you associate life with non equilibrium processes and soul with available energy. Really excellent neuronal cross linking there!
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 3, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
MH2

climber
Apr 3, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
My banner ad today






My best guess





The other day Terry O'Reilly on CBC Radio was talking about hyper-targeting. This is hyper-retro-obscurity-targeting.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Apr 3, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
For careful study...
http://saiu.org/2013/04/03/greenwald-and-hussain-on-sam-harris-and-racism/

.....

Speaking of caricature, here's another most recent leveled at me...

HFCS who believes we understand everything and it's all just an engineering problem to figure it out...

:(

Sign of the times, just have to roll with it, I guess.

.....

Take Action: Support Imprisoned Atheist Bloggers In Bangladesh

http://action.americanhumanist.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=13035

http://www.gulf-times.com/bangladesh/245/details/347680/bangladesh-arrests-three-atheist-bloggers
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 3, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
I wonder if Dolphins would have atomic bombs if they could only hold a pencil.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 3, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
To get the web trackers off of your ass, download "Do not Track Me."

5 stars from CNET.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 4, 2013 - 12:55am PT
Ed:

Your writing is downright lyrical. I beamed reading it. (the 4/2 at 8:23)

Ed and Largo:

I know people (well along in their careers) in academia who are good at editing, good at visualizing things in creative ways--who are good artists and good writers and good in their science. They make their science come alive.

So what is it--science, writing, or artistry?

Aren't they attempting to approach the unapproachable, the indescribable, the ungraspable?

As my teacher says: "TFW" (too f*cking weird).

My wife and I talked about how we got to where we are today, and although our paths look understandable, if we simply layout the events one after another, they are all almost completely unrelated and paradoxical. Their "evolutions" present a total mystery.

Is it randomness? Is it An Absolute in control of everything? Or are we just stupid? I mean, I'm kinda a smart guy, but brother . . . TFW.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:15am PT
Incredible Scientific program on PBS/SoCal proof of Plants awareness of each other.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/what-plants-talk-about/video-dodder-vine-sniffs-out-its-prey/8234/

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/what-plants-talk-about/preview/8228/
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:46am PT
The first Mechanized Computer. From 100 BCE.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:38am PT
I can vouch for the Do not Track Me program that base104 recommends from CNET. He mentioned it on another thread so I downloaded it and now all I see is the Supertopo logo.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 4, 2013 - 04:59am PT
One of the top eye-to-brain research scientists was an English/French major who got into to science due to having to take a biology course her last semester in order to graduate. She got curious about the genetics and asked the prof where she could learn more and he said, "in my lab" so she went to work for him and it was off to the races after that.

She said her work on how we get from light to vision is a lot like translating english-to-french and she's just trying to sort out the dictionary.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 4, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
//Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow//

From T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men, one of my three or four favorite poems. Yep. Us pocket protector types do like music, art, and poetry.

I don't try to quantify poetry, although no doubt some psychologist is doing research along these lines.

I just like it, and the above seems to fit Largo's idea of perception.

I haven't changed my mind, and I doubt that I ever will, until it is carefully explained in small words. JL has a habit of tossing his writing style into a mental argument. Technical Writing, for lack of a better term, uses terms that are easily understood by others that share that particular language.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 4, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
http://io9.com/bees-are-actually-capable-of-deductive-reasoning-468868141


Clever bees.
jstan

climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Technical Writing, for lack of a better term, uses terms that are easily understood by others that share that particular language.

Technical writing endeavors to take statements (facts, data, theory, whatever), apply to them agreed upon and deductive processes, thereby reaching a conclusion (hopefully irrefutable).

If reader and writer do not have the same understanding for each part of this process, no agreed upon conclusion is possible. The meaning of no word may be in dispute. Witness this thread.

John is not involved in a deductive process. As a popular writer his task is to describe an experience. His experiences. His writing appears to be purely experiential.



Ed suggested that life is not equilibrium, entropy decreases (a human can in fact take a bag of red and blue marbles and separate the colors) and that the associated energy that becomes free energy can be followed by action (work). That energy or work being what we call soul. Soul being our intention.

Ed's contribution is seminal.

The masthead on my ST page has returned to the symptoms of Alzheimer's. Thanks Ed. That information is of more use to me than what was there before.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Apr 4, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
you are partially predefining consciousness, even though there is a whole discussion trying to figure out what consciousness is

Well Paul I would have to cite to Lewis Carroll and say that when I use a word it means precisely what I think it means, nothing more nothing less. (lol)

My definition is self-awareness. The reason I define it that way is because that's what I think the theists are basing most everything on. The feeling of being yourself, of being separate from your environment, of continuity over time. This feeling is what I think causes people to believe in souls. Freud called it the ego (or superego, I forget - I dont like Freud) Babies don't seem to have this for the first year of their lives. That's strange because many other animals are almost fully developed at birth. It may be something that comes about as a result of lower level information processes bootstrapping themselves. Is there a bootstrapping theory of consciousness? If not, we should invent it.

On the other hand, if you wanted to concentrate on the observer-observed relationship, you'd start with nerves and feedback loops. Being "in the moment" - I'm really sick of that expression, but it works here. We could argue about the meaning of the word consciousness but the first thing I would do is agree to use a different word, whatever the best word is.

If you want to say that a virus or a proton is conscious or that reducing entropy is consciousness, fine but its not what I'm talking about. A proton is not self-aware until proven otherwise. The decrease in entropy is a product of life, not consciousness, by my definition at least. Some people may want to base their philosophy on that but to get at the root cause of religion, you have to address the issue, why do I feel like I'm me?

Afterthought: where exactly is this consciousness anyway? Admit it, you think its about 2 inches behind your eyes. Is that because your brain is there? No. That's just a coincidence. It's because that's where your input devices are. If your brain were somewhere in your abdomen, you'd still think "you" were 2 inches behind your eyes. Now what about these drone pilots assassinating people all across Pakistan and Yemen? Their consciousness reflects someplace their body isnt even located. What about a person watching a movie?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Technical Writing, for lack of a better term, uses terms that are easily understood by others that share that particular language.

Technical writing endeavors to take statements (facts, data, theory, whatever), apply to them agreed upon and deductive processes, thereby reaching a conclusion (hopefully irrefutable).

If reader and writer do not have the same understanding for each part of this process, no agreed upon conclusion is possible. The meaning of no word may be in dispute. Witness this thread.

John is not involved in a deductive process. As a popular writer his task is to describe an experience. His experiences. His writing appears to be purely experiential.


I'd wager you have about half of this right.

I try and keep things anchored in my experience as opposed to borrowing stuff second hand. But when I do technical writing (and I've done a ton of it), like describing anchoring systems, etc., I don't use poetic or literary terms meaning to evoke a sense of something as opposed to furnishing specs. I feel comfortable with both forms, and have worked in both long enough to acknowledge that a one-size-fits-all delivery does not do justice to all subjects. This is a point often lost on quantifiers, who expect any facet of reality, including the whole shebang, to best be framed by way of a deductive process that reaches a conclusion, hopefully irrefutable.

This is a fine approach for the world of things you want to, or can, quantify. The part where people trip up is in believing the whole blooming thing avails itself to quantification. I've hammered this point per recognizing the qualitative differences between things, the tendency of some to cram all of reality into the same box and get to measuring. Problem is the box can't hold it ALL. Quantifiers rejoin that lest it's in the box, it is not real. Ero the cognitive loop.

The reason that mankind, over the centuries, has chosen to dance and paint and write poetry and fashion myths about aspects of reality is not exclusively because they lacked the math to do physics. They are not TRYING to quantify surface layer aspects or functional properties, not because they don't know how, but because they understand to do so is "like dancing about engineering." It simply doesn't work in all cases.

JL
WBraun

climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
where exactly is this consciousness anyway

Consciousness pervades the entire body.

The source of consciousness for the human being is the spiritual soul within the heart.

This is a bonafide fact and confirmed .....
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Consciousness pervades the entire body.

The source of consciousness for the human being is the spiritual soul within the heart.

This is a bonafide fact and confirmed .....

Confirmed by whom?

I say consciousness lives in your eyes, because when I open them, my conscoiousness seems to be connected to them, and I can see the thing that I am thinking about

and the word "eye" = "I", as in me

and when I point to me, I point to my eyes!!

Fact confirmed
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