Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13121 - 13140 of total 22747 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 26, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
So you may really may want to rethink those particular chunks of dogmatic nonsense and maybe even reconsider why you both seem to have such a strong need for spirituality to flow from the structured teachings of 'masters' and authoritative 'outfits'. It's really the antithesis of many native cultures around the world, but then again, many of those do lack the bona fides which obviously flow from advanced outfittery. Personally I find such perspectives arrogant, utterly stifling, highly [and artificially] constrained and constraining.


Healyje, have another drink. Or three, you silly rummy. If you want to tie one on, have at it.

You have to notice that like a moth to a flame, you instantly revert to the idea that spirituality is a "thing" that "issues" from "masters."

We have to wonder if you would take the same issue with a scientist following a scholastic program under known "masters." Or if, like many others, you simply can't stomach the idea that some forms of spirituality have actual and viable teaching methods that are every bit as rigorous and structured and test-oriented as grad school.

Most of all, I would never have to explain this if you had bothered to ever actually go to Zendo or whatever and saw for yourself that the scenario you have in your silly brainpan is the equal of the old Japanese ad of Bachar on Midnight Lightning with the words: "Let's Bouldering."



WBraun

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
LOL .....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Largo: Or if, like many others, you simply can't stomach the idea that some forms of spirituality have actual and viable teaching methods that are every bit as rigorous and structured and test-oriented as grad school.

The very notion of '[discrete] forms of spirtuality' is difficult to stomach to an extent in the inference that any 'form' of spirituality is superior or a better way to get to "isness". Or for that matter, that 'isness' requires any form of spirituality whatsoever. Again, keep fooling yourself that you or Zen masters are the keepers of some rare, elite or unique knowledge; it's the oldest vanity in the world. There are infinite paths to 'isness' and among them are no shortage of those which exhibit high levels of structure, rigor, and ritual - but such requirements have nothing whatsoever to do with 'isness' and everything to do with the seekers who require them.

What is really on display here is just how much some personality types require a path which is wholly dependent on the existence of a palpable and 'certain' authoritativeness.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 26, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
Don't miss this week's episode of "Touched By A Roshi."
Parental advisory: some mature content.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 26, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Man with weak arguments resorts to name calling.
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
largo and WB we wont convince each other of anything....just keep livin' the dream :-) I know I am

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
There are infinite paths to 'isness' and among them are no shortage of those which exhibit high levels of structure, rigor, and ritual - but such requirements have nothing whatsoever to do with 'isness' and everything to do with the seekers who require them.
-


I would be interested in hearing about your personal experiences per the "infinite paths" that led you to believe the curriculum, whatever you actually practiced, had "nothing" to do with the outcome, which in fact was a projection of the student all along.

Imagine trying to sell this silly argument about grad school.

JL
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
Actually, I think both sides are right but they are talking different levels. Every eastern retreat center I've been to, over half the people there told me that they got interested in meditation after psychedelic drug experiences. On the other hand, most people who took psychedelics did not enlighten themselves or the world but went on to the next generation of recreational drugs. There are many different ways to awaken to another level of consciousness - everything from a Zen master's whack on your shoulder to a hit of acid. Where you go with it from there, depends on you.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
A good comparison is acting. Lots of schools and studios run by 'masters' and many highly structured and rigorous, but countless good actors come into the business by other means. But, I have no doubt whatsoever you believe you need a structured and rigorous 'method' and the authoritative attentions of a master. Where you err, and err egregiously, is in the assumption that attaining 'isness' somehow must require such means versus it simply being a matter of you needing them.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:43am PT
unusual historical information compilation from Russian TV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwUpPwyyvLw&feature=player_embedded
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 27, 2013 - 03:21am PT
I just watched "The Master," which is a thinly veiled story based on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. It was pretty weird. The weird thing is how people flocked to it in the fifties. I think it would be interesting if others have seen it and would comment.

He was no doubt the master, and ended up being called just "Master."

It reminds me of some of the spiritual paths that I see here.

Now. Who is the Master and who is gulping the product? Is that a little harsh? Was Hubbard a prophet or a quack? How do you know the difference?

I think that I am going to go read a scientology book to see how weird it gets.



new world order2

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 08:26am PT
"Does consciousness do war? No, it does peace."

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/80619-david-icke-the-end-of-the-schism-moving-to-consciousness-from-mind-letting-go-of-fear

"You cannot solve problems, with the same level of consciousness that created them." --Albert Einstein
WBraun

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 09:16am PT
we're not trying to ask unanswerable questions

A lot of times folks actually believe questions are unanswerable.

They are answerable.

Just not always with words here but thru real "life" experiences.

Some questions are not answerable in this lifetime yet for certain individuals due to them not being ready yet.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 27, 2013 - 09:26am PT
Ron Hubbard was not known as 'Master'. He was known as 'Commodore' (on the ships) or 'Author' or 'Source', but most often just as 'Ron'.

Ron didn't claim any deity or prophet status. His stature among followers was based upon his very extensive creative works and knowledge on a wide range of subjects. It was hard to mention any subject from philosophy to psychiatry to celestial navigation to camera lenses to ship engines to paint chemistry where he had not studied the subject in great detail. Whatever else you may think of him, you have to admire his creative energy.

Ron was an incredibly energetic and prolific author and compiled knowledge from many sources throughout the world, doing a great deal of original research on his own and with associates. The compilation of all these writings is known within his organization as the source materials. The internal integrity of the source materials are representative of his personal philosophy based upon all this accumulation of knowledge and research results. Whether or not you agree with his synthesis of understanding, it is an impressive body of work.

It appears that many people throughout his life didn't relate well to his aggressive attitude of superiority. He rarely attributed concepts to others and his accounts of his own history are strongly biased to his own viewpoint (how unusual...good thing we don't know any climbers like that...) And there were frustrated practical joker aspects to his personality that are very disturbing to people who take everything too seriously with too little knowledge.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:59am PT
I think many people on this thread struggle mightily with the idea that there are various levels of achievement or clarity per spiritual matters in the same sense that there are various levels of academic achievement - ie, BA, MS, Phd, yada yada. An abiding idea here, and laughingly ignorant in my experience, is that a real cowboy c#m natural man can arrive at his very own isness just as rapidly and profoundly as some dupe in a highly ritualized outfit where everyone is licking the boots of the "Master" who is the equal of L. Ron Hubbard, a notorious charletan.

For instance, Healjy writes: "Where you err, and err egregiously, is in the assumption that attaining 'isness' somehow must require such means versus it simply being a matter of you needing them."

Here, the silly boy assumes that merely needing "isness" (he's not said what this is, experientially, to him) is the same as receiving or experiencing same. Again, the real cowboy does it all himself. And anyone thinking expert instruction is needed or advised is in erring "egregiously."

The danger here is that Healyj is not speaking from direct experience, but is guessing based on what he has read. That's easy to discern based on his distorted ideas about how modern western spiritual outfits are run, and what the practice consists of.

The next part is that he is half right.

As I've said, everyone is basically left to work it all out themselves. The spiritual practices and outfits are there to make the process vastly more efficient, not to sate weak kneed folk's desire to worship at the feet of masters. This is silly, and we all know it - as though any hard core climber on this thread is going to be a blind follower or some high lama. The idea is sophmoric.

The outfits simply accord a student a structure to do what he or she would almost never have the skill or discipline to do on their own. For instance, most people would never be able to stay silent for a week and avoid eye contact as well. This practice forces a person to be entirely with their own process without distractions. Etc. There are many other examples.

I think many people here simply cannot get their heads around the idea that there are actual experts in spiritual matters, that whatever they "know" can just as easily be learned or experienced with no routine, no discipline, no method, and no instruction. The lie here is that none of us actually live our lives like that. In casual affairs, it is fine to be entirely self educated. But when it maters, you have to have credentials or you are not legally allowed to practice law or medicine or fill in the blank. What people believe here is that ALL spiritual credentials are meaningless because the "product" is itself either imaginary or is attainable through cognition or by the natural dood just being natural, like the Great Lebowski.

Again, virtually all of these opinions are from people who have no actual experience in a structured spiritual disicpline. Anyone with an honest curiosity should consider a mild intro into the field with, say, a week long silent Vapassana retreat, then report back and see if your direct experience at all, in any way shape or form, squares with what Healyj is ranting about. I'll even arrange it for you if you really want to bust a move.

But my sense of it is that the bulk of the detractors are only interested in ranting about it. Faced with with the actual lead, so to speak, they don't have the ambition or sack to even try the first move.

JL




cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
Yeah, punk, think you're MAN ENOUGH for ZEN?

Most original marketing ploy ever.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
Largo: I think many people on this thread struggle mightily with the idea that there are various levels of achievement or clarity per spiritual matters in the same sense that there are various levels of academic achievement - ie, BA, MS, Phd, yada yada.

Not at all. I keep pointing out there are no shortage of folks who need structured approaches to 'spirituality' with their attending steppings and the ribbons, bows, and recognition of 'achievement'. The complete failure here is to believe that has anything whatsoever to do with spirituality or 'isness' or that "clarity" can only be arrived at in that manner.

Largo: Here, the silly boy assumes that merely needing "isness" (he's not said what this is, experientially, to him) is the same as receiving or experiencing same.

Entirely laughable given we're ten thousand posts down the road and we've heard around a dozen words from a veritable literary savant telling us what this is, experimentally, to him.

Largo: The danger here is that Healyj is not speaking from direct experience, but is guessing based on what he has read. That's easy to discern based on his distorted ideas about how modern western spiritual outfits are run, and what the practice consists of.

That would be a clueless and, again, egregiously wrong and arrogant statement.

Largo: As I've said, everyone is basically left to work it all out themselves. The spiritual practices and outfits are there to make the process vastly more efficient, not to sate weak kneed folk's desire to worship at the feet of masters. This is silly, and we all know it - as though any hard core climber on this thread is going to be a blind follower or some high lama. The idea is sophmoric.

And yet you can't envision or accept there are endless ways of arriving at the same place without such structure and masters. No wonder those savage aboriginal peoples of the Earth with master-less and unstructured approaches to spirituality are just so damn lost and devoid of 'isness'.

Largo: I think many people here simply cannot get their heads around the idea that there are actual experts in spiritual matters, that whatever they "know" can just as easily be learned or experienced with no routine, no discipline, no method, and no instruction. The lie here is that none of us actually live our lives like that. In casual affairs, it is fine to be entirely self educated. But when it matters, you have to have credentials or you are not legally allowed to practice law or medicine or fill in the blank.

Your need for authoritativeness, achievement, recognition, and credentialling has already been fully noted.

Largo: Again, virtually all of these opinions are from people who have no actual experience in a structured spiritual disicpline. Anyone with an honest curiosity should consider a mild intro into the field with, say, a week long silent Vapassana retreat, then report back and see if your direct experience at all, in any way shape or form, squares with what Healyj is ranting about. I'll even arrange it for you if you really want to bust a move.

My daughter was doing ten day Vapassana retreats in high school and in fact went back all through college over her breaks. And I was clearly just a tourist at all those Asian Zendos. 'Dood' is for sure the right appellation here.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 27, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
John Long, I will again ask you:

Given that I AM seriously interested in finding out the "advantages" of pursuing and learning more about this spirituality you speak about, would you mind saying just what this knowledge does for you personally?

it must have changed you somehow in a very positive way from when you first looked into this or you would not be such a strong advocate.....

can you elaborate a little?
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Largo.....I am up for just about anything at just about any time. If I were to take you up on it, would you then take psilocybin alone in silent darkness?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 27, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
Healjy said: "And I was clearly just a tourist at all those Asian Zendos."

We'd be interested in hearing about your experiences in Asian Zendos.

I think where you are losing your way is in believing the structure and the silence and the instruction of the masters produces some thing just as easily attained, or which you are certain can be squeezed out of "going native," perhaps, and letting the groovy universe work it's mojo on my isness.

Having been on over a dozen expeditions to the most primitive places on earth, including Borneo, Papua, and Irian Jaya, the experience of digging for grubs in the rain forest is not exactly what I am driving at here, though the isnes of same is robust.

I trust I know the primitive, unvarnished natural side of humanity as well as most anyone you have ever met. I spent years embedded in the very heart of it.

JL

Getting my isness on in Irian Jaya
Getting my isness on in Irian Jaya
Credit: Largo
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