Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13061 - 13080 of total 23145 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 7, 2013 - 12:07am PT
The problem is that many people are convinced that it is possible to explore all of reality via a one-size-tits


All right enough bullshit already. Its one thing to intimidate us with Hildergerg Spaces but don't for a second think we'll ever settle for one size tits.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 7, 2013 - 12:12am PT
Where are we going here?

How is my awareness limited? How similar is your awareness to mine..Why can't I see through your eyes?

Does your green look like my green?
MH2

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 12:20am PT
Numbers are symbols. If people are in agreement as to the meaning of those symbols


"People" may be in agreement but mathematicians may go a little deeper than the symbols:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_class

and then get on with life.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 7, 2013 - 12:34am PT
Largo is seeing if the phrase "bullshit baffles brains" is true.
jstan

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 01:50am PT
I was considering that possibility a year or two ago. But it would take a lot of imagination to decide that. So I am thinking he is as he is and there is no other way for him to be.

Werner had some sage advice years ago and I am going with it.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 7, 2013 - 08:15am PT
What about reading a thermometer.

Will give me something to think about. It's a more complex question than it appears because the thermometer isnt the temperature nor is it a symbol for the temperature, it makes the example indirect. But the result is going to be that the temperature is whatever it is, and if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, it proves the pope probably does sh#t in the woods after all.

Is 3 a physical thing?

No. Show me two identical things, let alone three. Show me a right angle, that's exactly 90 degrees. It's real though isn't it?
MH2

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 11:19am PT
Plato could have done that for you Don Paul, but you have to look inside your head to see the demonstrably objective (i.e. independent of a given observer) mathematical reality.
WBraun

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
The Hilbert Space is none other than in Sanskrit "lokas"

They are spheres of consciousness.

They all exist on the earth as well as within us.

They've been known since day one.

The modern materialists cave men are just beginning to find out about these although it's been known for millions and millions of years.

You don't need a 9 billion dollar smash tube to understand.

Actually the 9 billion dollar smash tube will never see it.

The highest loka is Sataloka and can not and never be accessed by any material means .....
MH2

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Truth is stranger and more satisfying than fiction.


Other temperature questions for consciousness:


Why does it often feel good to walk into a sauna, but after a while it feels bad and you leave?

Why do most people prefer warm showers to cold?

Does a cold shower feel any different after a sauna than it did before?


Is it better to try and understand temperature perception as objective versus subjective, or better to see temperature perception as messages helping us to promote our survival?

Until a better understanding comes along, I like to view consciousness as a sophisticated predictive property of the brain, using past experience, modeling, imagination, and who knows what else to see into the future. Natural selection rewards predictive ability in certain branches of the tree of life, mainly where predators and prey are roughly evenly matched in brain power.

With humans natural selection may have gone too far. Now that we have re-made our environment to suit us our predictive capacities seem unable to adjust to the new challenges presented by large numbers of people needing to cooperate while competing with each other.

At least there is that subjective bubble where we can watch life on a small screen.
WBraun

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
I like to view consciousness as a sophisticated predictive property of the brain

It's not from the brain.

But that is the defective direction that you are all heading.

Sorry .....
MH2

climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
No need to be sorry, Werner. Some of us are still stuck in a trial and error kind of learning. I appreciate any help that I get.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 7, 2013 - 02:12pm PT

Until a better understanding comes along, I like to view consciousness as a sophisticated predictive property of the brain, using past experience, modeling, imagination, and who knows what else to see into the future.

FINALLY! Someone willing to step up and describe this mosaic
in their own tint of words.

Remember the Mona Lisa started out as just separate piles of red, white, and blues.
Until someone's conscience smeared them together to create that form of beauty.
Now when we look at her. Are we trying to figure out what's the different tints of her hair?
No. We're trying to figure out what's behind that "cock-eyed" smirk on her face.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 7, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Ed, how much of the math in QM is non-linear? I may be mistaken and haven't looked it up lately but I get the impression that a lot of it is linear.

In a world as complex as ours one would think that much of measured reality, especially at quantum levels, would be non-linear (a difficult area and one I have dabbled in for many years, beginning with infinite continued fractions - often one seeks ways of approximating the non-linear with the linear)


;>)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 7, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
MH2: Until a better understanding comes along, I like to view consciousness as a sophisticated predictive property of the brain, using past experience, modeling, imagination, and who knows what else to see into the future. Natural selection rewards predictive ability in certain branches of the tree of life, mainly where predators and prey are roughly evenly matched in brain power.

I posited that conjecture several thousand posts ago stating I believe the selective 'pressure' of predation - on both predator and prey - likely acted as an 'arms race' with that arms race in turn driving the evolution of consciousness. The pace of that evolution was likely governed by the motility of the players and their ability to anticipate and visualize alternate futures. Or, more simply, the ability to 'anticipate' drove the evolution of consciousness.

I had hoped it would gain more traction at the time given the degree it likely influenced how humans evolved and why many aspects of our 'advance' society can still be mapped back onto basic predation behaviors and strategies. For instance - and with regard to the role of motility and and anticipation in predation - the stock market has evolved high-speed trading which, in turn, spurred the clever employment of physicists to calculate worldwide network latencies on trades sent on all the planets major optic fiber trunks. Those analyses have driven the recent wholesale relocation of trade origination data centers to far-flung geographic locations and remote fiber hubs in an attempt to achieve millisecond optimizations / advantage in transaction speeds.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
consensus view is that quantum mechanics "works" (i.e. it leads to predictions that are consistent with observations) without much serious thought into what it "means" in terms of "reality."

I take this to mean that 'workable' abstractions - like Hilbert space- or for that matter quantum mechanics itself- begin to breakdown the further one ventures outside of the consensually agreed upon confines of the measured and predicted system?

"Reality" in this context cannot be understood because it is larger than the abstraction used to predict specialized and measured fragments. Perhaps the universe contains far too many strong emergent properties?
As was clearly stated, these theories and their abstractive frameworks are provisional.

At this stage ,science is in the early construction of the jigsaw puzzle ,with only one or two pieces looking like they fit at the corner of the frame. And yet they are important pieces. Perhaps they display form and function characteristic of every other piece in the whole picture
Still, relative to where we have been , Science , in general, constitutes a major revolution in thought and practice. (Understatement of the day)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I posited that conjecture several thousand posts ago stating I believe the selective 'pressure' of predation - on both predator and prey - likely acted as an 'arms race' with that arms race in turn driving the evolution of consciousness. The pace of that evolution was likely governed by the motility of the players and their ability to anticipate and visualize alternate futures. Or, more simply, the ability to 'anticipate' drove the evolution of consciousness.

One can make the case that species not under the prey/ predator selection dynamic you outlined underwent a change in consciousness based solely upon the ever- changing availability and type of plant food sources.
For instance , there have been island species of various creatures relatively free of predatory pressures who nonetheless developed the acquired capacity to more easily spot the distinctive color of a new fruit source. This heightened color vision constitutes a quantum leap in consciousness for those species.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 7, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
Ward Trotter: One can make the case that species not under the prey / predator selection dynamic you outlined underwent a change in consciousness based solely upon the ever- changing availability and type of food sources.

For instance , there have island species of various creatures relatively free of predatory pressures who nonetheless developed the acquired capacity to more easily spot the distinctive color of a new fruit source. This heightened color vision constitutes a quantum leap in consciousness for those species.

I wouldn't necessarily argue that point, but merely say predation probably represents an 'accelerant' to the development of higher orders of consciousness (cue Werner).
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 7, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
Why do most people prefer warm showers to cold?

lol, not in Colombia. I installed a water heater that goes on the end of the shower head, it works a little and is better than ice cold water, but that's what everyone in the tropics likes. The cold water feels good to them and refreshing, no one but me takes hot showers. And when I do it normally blows a fuse anyway.

I agree that the brain's predictive capacity is its main purpose. It evolved really fast once humans began to live in large communities, and the crucial skill was to understand how other people thought and predict what they would do. That turned out to be the most important survival skill, modeling the thinking of other humans to predict what they would do.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
I wouldn't necessarily argue that point, but merely say predation probably represents an 'accelerant' to the development of higher orders of consciousness (queue Werner).

Okay. I'm not necessarily skeptical of that general contention. I was hoping you would further detail and identify the origins and extent of the unique prey/predator profile encountered by humans and its role in the development of higher consciousness.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 7, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
Oh, I didn't mean humans specifically - could just as easily be talking Jumping Spiders, Killer Whales, or Wolves. Though I find it interesting in humans that, in many respects, predation (and competition) has become increasingly more abstract over time.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 7, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
increasingly more abstract over time.

That is the core of the supposition. Anticipation, visualization, prediction- these are abstract functions.
In other words, it is thought that the development of higher orders of consciousness are intimately bound up with executive cerebral function, which was more critically selected for under prey/predator pressure.

But then we have Don Paul's comment above:

I agree that the brain's predictive capacity is its main purpose. It evolved really fast once humans began to live in large communities, and the crucial skill was to understand how other people thought and predict what they would do. That turned out to be the most important survival skill, modeling the thinking of other humans to predict what they would do.

Apparently these abstract functions were later driven by intra-species social adjustments, after we largely gave up hunting and being hunted (except by our fellow humans that is).
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