Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13041 - 13060 of total 22989 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 24, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
Tom perhaps I should explain myself a bit. I like to present ideas as questions, as much because I don't know the answers, even if I suspect where the answer may ultimately lie. When I do so I hope that it is obvious that I am open to alternative ideas or even outright destruction of whatever it is I am proposing. It also gives me liscence (i think ) to really propose some out there stuff, or challenging stuff without being too outrageously disrespectful. The way I look at it is any question is an opportunity to find an answer, which I think only the less open minded would have a problem with. I suspect such an approach is anathema the more entrenched one is to authoritarian dogma, which some religious people certainly are so I do realize it isn't going to go over well with everyone!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 24, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Bruce, i understand and respect your viewpoint and don't intend to criticize

the only thing that really bothers me on this thread is when someone claims a position as the only valid viewpoint worth considering, and i don't see you doing that

and there is just such a broad representation of knowledge, wisdom, and talent represented here to justify treating anyone with disrespect


MH2

climber
Feb 24, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
That's a soulful pic of Peanut/Chicky, go-B. My consolation.
MH2

climber
Feb 24, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
What Bruce said about the CBC radio program Tapestry. It doesn't worry about who is right or wrong. It is a welcoming meeting ground for religious faithful and skeptic.
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 24, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
healyje:

I really liked your post. It is similar to the point I was trying to make.

Dr F: The imagination. Where dreams, hallucinations, and ideas reside.

Immaterial ideas do indeed change our objective world everyday. In fact I would say, it is the single most important part of human evolution. Everything man made has started life as an immaterial idea. It is then manifested in the material world. Every building, every machine, song, ect....

In this way, inside the human brain, the material and immaterial come together. They influence each other. There is a whole other non material universe inside you.

I don't think you are wrong for your pure materialist view. I think you are right. And I think Warner and the spiritualists is right also. Such is the paradox....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 24, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
Largo,
I'd wager a burger that you tried to meditate by yourself, with no community and no teacher. Imagine trying to learn climbing if you had to work the whole shebang up from scratch? A skilled teacher would have had you bore into that
separateness till it morphed into something else. IME, a lot of these plateaus are things you simply have to wait out.

i,d wager a burger that some people aren't able to get past the first book of the Bible without a community and a good teacher.

several times a day I get frustrated being in a wheelchair

i bought my daughter a wheelchair from the thriftstore on X-mas. No.1 thing on her list! Really! She likes me to push her around the house, while she pretends to be old, or injured, or that she's a princess in her chariot.
When she pushes me, she giggles, cause she has the ability to direct where Daddy can and can't go. But she laughs out hestaricly when i push her around our 2ac.
yard as fast (and as long) as my leggs will go.
Over the past few weeks, i have found myself cozying up in it after some long days working framing up a house. i,ll sit down in that thing and turn on the computer, the tv. Roll into the kitchen and grab a snack. Roll it back into the livingroom drop it off. Roll outside grab some firewood.
Shoot, i,m already thinking of lowering my sinks so i could do the dishes sit'in down? And maybe a roll-in shower? Oh, wait i gotta tub..
Anyway,, i,ve been lov'in the wheelchair asof late, for it has provided me with entertainment and relaxation! Flip side of the coin, i guess??
i hope you can find some enjoyment roll'in around! i,ll bet a burger you'll
be back on your feet lickitysplit!
BB
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2013 - 12:12am PT
Largo: Imagine trying to learn climbing if you had to work the whole shebang up from scratch?

One of the things I am most thankful of is learning to climb in a complete backwater where almost everything we touched was an FA and we did essentially work the whole shebang up from scratch. On our first trip to Eldo we were awestruck by the amount of obviously long-standing social structure, hierarchy, and 'traditions' in play around climbing there. We couldn't have been more blessed to have come up in the hollers away from such ridiculous scenes and able to generate our own small and even more ridiculous scene. Can't imagine anything worse for us and whatever our potential was than coming up in a long-establish climbing scene.

As for other folks' experience with meditation, you make a lot of assumptions, which you have all along, which are presumptuous at best, arrogant at worst.

Tom: ...is this the same guy giving everyone a hard time?

I haven't been giving anyone a 'hard time'. I've simply been arguing against religion, panpsychism, and other fill-in-the-blank approaches to the unknown and also against underestimating the complexity and potential of biological processes.

In particular, and throughout, I have been in vehement agreement with you relative to how little we actually know. Where we seem to differ, and where I differ on every occasion I run across it, is with the near-universal desperate and relentless human need to fill that void of the unknown with nonsense, voodoo, and unsupportable conjecture passed off as fact; it's entirely fear- and fantasy-driven and quite dangerous from my perspective.

Where does one draw the line? For example, my wife was watching some Oprah show tonight featuring a psychiatrist renowned for his 'work' in the 'field' of past life regression. Or, my favorite, "My Ghost Story" on the biography channel, where they make clear that now, after securing an agent, young actors need to get serious about their 'ghost story'. Again I say, where does one draw the line on this gibberish and nonsense? At what point does it all become corrosive?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 25, 2013 - 02:56am PT
healeyje-

Some of us are old enough to remember when there was no established hierarchy or social scene in Eldo and it was still possible to put up first ascents there. As late as 1965, a couple of us could go out and climb on a sunny weekday and not see anyone else there.

As for where to draw the line, that's an individual question, but be careful. Past life regression occurs naturally at a certain stage of meditation. The question for anyone interested in the brain/mind is what possible alternative explanations to reincarnation could there be?

In fact the answer might be purely materialist. If so, it would seem our genetic heritage might sometimes carry memories from our ancestor's lives. And if so, where would those memories be stored? On a different grid than normal memories of this lifetime or interspersed or what?

If near death experiences are worth studying then surely so are past life memories or any mental phenomenon for that matter. And if the placebo effect works so well, why not past life regression? And does it matter if the basic premise is false when the patient ends up healed?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2013 - 04:18am PT
Jan, I din't make it to Eldo until a full decade later and it was quite the scene at that point.

But, on the other topic, I'm afraid I would disagree and say any assertion reincarnation exists or the idea we 'possess' or exhibit any 'knowledge' of 'past lives' is entirely unsupportable conjecture never rising above the level of religious belief.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:04am PT
Reincarnation is a religious belief, based no doubt on people's experiences of remembering what they feel are past lives. The interesting question for consciousness studies is where do those memories come from if not past lives? Maybe we will discover someday that stimulating a particular part of the brain causes them to happen. That won't settle the issue for everyone anymore than near death experiences based on brain stimulation, but it will be interesting to see what part of the brain is involved.

And here's a great editorial in the New York Times.

The Riddle of the Human Species

The opening line is guaranteed to win approval on this thread.

The task of understanding humanity is too important and too daunting to leave to the humanities.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/the-riddle-of-the-human-species/?hp
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:01am PT
...what they feel are past lives.

People 'feel' all kinds of things. People 'feel' they've seen ghosts, Nessie, UFOs and inter-dimensional Sasquatch as well. Any assertion reincarnation exists because of what people feel remains unsupportable conjecture.

E.O. Wilson: It is dangerous to think of this planet as a way station to a better world, or continue to convert it into a literal, human-engineered spaceship.

I wholeheartedly agree with Wilson on this point.
WBraun

climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:52am PT
Joe is "fixed up" and there's nothing that is going to sway him in any way about reincarnation, how the soul, the real living entity, us, transmigrate from body to body according to the consciousness developed in the is life.

Thus until he can get positive confirmation thru his material senses he will continually reject the notion that once the dissolution of the materiel body that's it.

Nihilism.

But in mathematics there's both sides to the zero, negative and positive sides which both side extend infinitely.

The soul by it's true nature is always active.

If you want to become zero, the cessation of all material activities you can go there and become zero.

But you will ultimately become miserable there.

No "activity", .... which goes against your true nature, just as largo has said he finds it difficult to remain in his convalescent state of physical inactivity due to his injuries.

One can see clearly thru diligent study of the material world how transmigration of the living entities occur.

From child to teenage to adult and old age the body continually changes but the the owner the living entity does not.

Many of us have said in this climbing forum alone how their bodies can not keep up with themselves due to changes.

The soul is ever fresh alive and never dies.

But due to coming into contact with the material body it falsely identify
thinking one is the body.

Just as the operator of the vehicle falsely thinks he's the vehicle, the coat.

They become one but remain simultaneously different.

Thus the "fixed up" gross materialists will remain on the platform of falsely claiming "I am this body" and completely reject that the body and the operator are simultaneously one and different.

In this age of hypocrisy and quarrel the consciousness of "I am the body" will be predominate ......



Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:02am PT
Reincarnation is a religious belief, based no doubt on people's experiences of remembering what they feel are past lives.


Is there really enough substantive evidence to support the use of "no doubt" here? I'm inclined to agree with Healye in that "Feelings" and "wishes" or "preferences of outcome" could also amount to the the whole basis upon which belief is supported. In fact, such is well established in human behavior in all kinds of endeavor, like at a blackjack table for the individual or collectively at Jones town, Mao's China or Karl Rove's Republican party. There is no reason to assume that spiritual belief is immune, especially if there is a lack of other substantive supporting evidence. Which is why I ask - is there anything of substance to support such an explanation of "remembered past lives"?
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:03am PT
But in mathematics there's both sides to the zero, negative and positive sides which both side extend infinitely.

A negative is just a positive in the opposite direction. Or whatever mumbo jumbo sounds good. Using the word "mathematics" in a post about spirituality doesn't make it more legitimate.

So far, lots of people keep saying that there is a spirit because a, b, and c but they never have any way to actually define those abc things. The arguments are just not convincing. Just because you think that there is a spirit doesn't make it so any more than my thinking that there is no spirit makes that so.

I just don't get why the believers cannot accept the possibility that they are wrong while the scientist types that don't believe in that stuff can accept that they may be wrong. How can you insult the scientist as having a closed mind when they are the only one's looking at all possibilities, not just stuck in the mindset that having dreams, imagination, meditation, etc., means that a persons absolutely must have a spirit and that there cannot be a way that we could use our brains to think without one.

It's really weird here.

Dave
WBraun

climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:24am PT
Why should the soul be wrong when it is a absolute bonafide scientific fact.

Just because you can't understand the science you want to project that everyone is wrong.

But as I've already explained "the consciousness of "I am the body" will be predominate in this age" due to poor fund of knowledge.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:36am PT
Joe is "fixed up" and there's nothing that is going to sway him in any way about reincarnation, how the soul, the real living entity, us, transmigrate from body to body according to the consciousness developed in the is life.

Thus until he can get positive confirmation thru his material senses he will continually reject the notion that once the dissolution of the materiel body that's it.

Nihilism.


I guess you also believe I am a Nihilist then. You know, us living entities do actually have a pretty good track record of determining the true nature of our various elements of existence here on earth, so It seems just a bit hilarious to dismiss such processes of assessment and confirmation out of hand, in favor of the unsubstantive and unquantifiable. As I said above, believing in such "evidence" is common behavior in other fields of enquiry and endeavor, with consistently fallible results. Why would such "feelings" be so failure prone there, yet be considered a legitimate foundation of "truth" in spirituality?

Can the idea of reincarnation be explained otherwise? Or is such a blasphemous question evidence of Nihilism?
WBraun

climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:39am PT
we do actually have a pretty good track record of determining the true nature of our various elements of existence here on earth,

Yes that is a fact.

But the soul is anti-material ......
MH2

climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:26am PT
There is evidence of the reliving of past lives. Politics, God and Religion vs. Science is doing it, now.


http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1386860&msg=1424547#msg1424547


also see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridey_Murphy
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 25, 2013 - 10:57am PT
Here is a complete list of "ism's." It is actually a really cool page. They list 234 of them.

http://phrontistery.info/isms.html
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:01am PT
Healyje wrote: As for other folks' experience with meditation, you make a lot of assumptions, which you have all along, which are presumptuous at best, arrogant at worst.
-


My obsersvations are based on being around Zendos since I was 18 years old and knowing the way business is conducted therein. The process has been refined and tweaked this way and that over a period of 2,500 years for the sole purpose of trying to arrive at the most fortuitous methods for a given time and place. I am not guessing nor yet suggesting that you meditate this way or that. Only that there are - as it goes with most all pursuits - a wide array of options and one involves experts that can quite possibly steepen your learning curve if you so desire.

This way of seeking mentorship is the approach I took with climbing. When I decided to go for it, I went to Yosemite, sought out the Bridwell's and Donini's in Camp 4 and glommed on for dear life. Not saying this is the approach you or anyone else should take, but it's a common approach for ambitious people.

Ultimately, we are all self-taught in climbing and meditation since no one can do the practice for us. But having reliable folks on the other end of the rope has it's advantages without diluting the "discovery" process." Believing that it does, that doing it ALL yourself is the "purer" way is a common illusion and one of the first to be addressed in a Zendo. Then you're instructed to go sit and face the wall, where ironically you're left to work it out - by yourself. There's no other way.

The point being that I am not formulating my own take on how your are supposed to practice, only passing on the way things are commonly done by those who have made it their life work.

As they say - take what you want, and leave the rest.

JL

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