Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 12881 - 12900 of total 22711 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 19, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
While there I took it on my own to go out and do song recordings at midnight during all four phases of the moon to determine if a) they sang different phrasing at night, b) different phrasing at different moon phases, but mostly c) to see if countering the gravitation of the moon relative to maintaining neutral buoyancy could be detected in their songs. Would loved to have had the technology at the time to compare all of the above with accurate depth data. Unfortunately the computer power just wasn't available at the time do do any of the requisite analysis, let alone at the resolution required to make any real judgment around the proposition. That, along with wanting to automate animation stands and large-scale greenhouse operations, was why I got into computers.
MH2

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
tucked down at the bottom of the page to be out of the way

FINALLY!

I no longer need to rain down curses on or poke pins into the misshapen wax doll of the West Vancouver Library cardholder who I feared had stolen the book I had been coveting since 10th October of last year. That was when I walked into the library and tapped out 'Roger Penrose' on the keyboard of the sleek modern terminal running an archaic database that is confounded by first names. Thank God the eminent physicist was not surnamed 'Smith.'

I learned that the book I wanted was due that very day. Perhaps it had come in but not been catalogued? I checked with one of the humans still employed by the municipality to look quietly busy and helpful behind the front desk and was assured that as the book slid down the return slot at the library entrance a ray of some kind would leap from the machine to the book or vice versa and the file for the book in the library database would instantly switch from DUE to AVAILABLE. This kept me happily checking and re-checking the database until I remembered I had better things to do.

I continued to query the library database for the overdue Penrose book. Every two or three weeks I looked up the entry and found it stuck at DUE DUE DUE. I hoped the library had an intimidating robot they could send round to the address of the miscreant.

About a month ago I found the entry changed to BILLED. The only further recourse i could think of was black magic.

Whether it was the pins or the curses or maybe the truant's cat that leapt up onto the folding lap-table in front of the computer where it's owner had placed the book to prop his arthritic elbows when Googling for how to kill aphids, toppling the table and bringing the book and yesterday's tea-leavings down with a crash, somehow the book returned to the library.

Now I have the book.






The first 7,000 pages or so are about math.







Among the usual blah blah blurbs on the jacket:


Praise for Roger Penrose

'Not bad for a human'
GOD




TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 09:04pm PT

Global Warming will Wipe Out Plankton from Oceans

Credit: TomCochrane



Plankton is the most prevalent life and food source in the ocean. Phytoplankton, which carries on photosynthesis near the ocean surface, serves as food for the zooplankton and fish.
The microscopic plants that underpin all life in the oceans are likely to be destroyed by global warming. Scientists have discovered a way that the vital plankton of the oceans can be starved of nutrients as a result of the seas getting warmer. They believe the findings have catastrophic implications for the entire marine habitat, which ultimately relies on plankton at the base of the food chain.

Plankton are microscopic animals (zooplankton) and algae (phytoplankton) that live in the ocean. They drift on currents and provide food for many ocean residents.

“A larger temperature difference between two water layers implies less mixing of chemicals between these water layers,” he said. “Global warming of the surface layers of the oceans, owing to climate change, strengthens the stratification and thereby reduces the upward mixing of nutrients.”

Scientists had believed phytoplankton, which survives best at depths of about 100 metres, is largely stable and immune from the impact of global warming. “This model prediction was rather unexpected,” Professor Huisman said.

“Reduced stability of the plankton, caused by global warming of the oceans, may result in a decline of oceanic production and reduced sequestration of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide into the oceans.”

Phytoplankton therefore acts as a carbon “sink” which takes carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and deposits the carbon in long-term stores that can remain undisturbed for thousands of years. If the growth of phytoplankton is interrupted by global warming, this ability to act as a buffer against global warming is also affected – leading to a much-feared positive feedback.

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane



http://artsonearth.com/2010/03/global-warming-will-wipe-out-plankton-from-oceans.html
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 19, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Largo - Good Question!
1) Spirit

2) Spiritual

3) Spiritual Universe


My persepective:

1. Spirit = "I" yep. That's all.

2. Spiritual = You and I and that quality that dead bodies don't have as Mr Cochrane pointed out so well with the photos.

3. Spiritual Universe - Where we go when we're not here knocking meat and bone against wood and stone. (Some folks talk about a "home universe" where we lived before we created reality together. I recently discovered that it's not some time in the distant past but here now! I'm still stoked about this.)



BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:29am PT

Feb 19, 2013 - 03:53pm PT

. . . since we get quizzed so much on the material universe, this isn't a discussion until somebody explains the following:

1) Spirit

2) Spiritual

3) Spiritual Universe


------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm thinking you're think that "explaining" 1-3 is an exercise much like explaining the physical universe, where words relate to quantafible people, places or things, in other words, to stuff we can know and to some extent, make clear (make "it" assume some recognizable or tangible form).

Is that what you're wanting for an answer? 1, a spirit, is this and that, with these properties, et al.

JL

I really need you to define this in some way. You are good with words, so it should't be too difficult.

It is easy to grasp a rock. I don't know where to go to observe spirit in any real sense.

So. Lead the way and help us out. There is a big disconnect between us right now. I'm perfectly willing to listen to anything you want to say.
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:30am PT
I don't know where to go to observe spirit in any real sense.

Study yourself .....
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:34am PT
As for Oklahoma, we used to be a pretty cool state, but in the last few years the Republicans have taken all houses of government and are now doing whatever they want.

On the upside, Sharia Law is banned. We can also carry loaded guns around without a permit as long as they are in the open.

They are also dismantling the state agencies and installing a good old boy system that it took us decades to get rid of.

OKC is home to many of the largest domestic oil and gas exploration companies, and is full of science. We are all shaking our heads in disgust at what is now going on. If you want to relocate, Oklahoma is OK other than the stifling heat. The people are nice and there is enough climbing to keep you going.

Just don't come if you have kids. You don't want them to grow up here.

I can't believe that I am saying this, but yes, the Governor and Legislature is batshit crazy uber right Limbaugh drones, and they can do whatever they want now.

Use Oklahoma as an example of what happens when the no-science party takes complete control.
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:39am PT
a popular interpretation of this commonality is that the spiritual domain is some universe place outside of the individual that is taped in to by the individual

That's not popular and completely false.

You're still trying to completely and ultimately "guess" the whole thing.

There's absolutely no doubt you are doing that .......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:23am PT
Ed, respectfully, do you have some specific comments in response to my struggles to understand what is happening at the molecular and sub-atomic particle level?

i.e. sub-atomic particles are 'thoughts' postulated by 'creative spiritual energy' and molecular persistence is created by encrypted motion patterns at the electron shell level...which we don't have the physical instruments to see...

i realize these would probably be considered pseudo-science unworthy of your attention...but can you tell me why and what is wrong with this line of reasoning from a scientific perspective?

i would really honor your response, because i have been thinking about how to understand this for a long time...

(and because i will claim to have seen it...)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:49am PT
i.e. sub-atomic particles are 'thoughts' postulated by 'creative spiritual energy' and molecular persistence is created by encrypted motion patterns at the electron shell level...which we don't have the physical instruments to see...

Of course I would have them (some specific comments) but this is "Bad Cops On Vacation Month" - so you're spared. ;)

.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJckLUkh9q0
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 10:00am PT
Base
we went over this before
They have no definitions,
Why?
Because we can refute them
as soon as they say what it is, we will be able to prove them wrong

I tried to define God, or get a definition of God from someone.

As soon as I tried to define him, they cried foul, and said I was too restrictive, or this and that

It's a never ending goose chase for the gold at the end of the rainbow

They have nothing to say or offer, it's just around and around using fancy words that hopefully fog our understanding enough so they can fit their God into it.

Supposedly this God does everything and is everywhere, yet they can't even tell us a single thing he has ever done, or tell us a single place to look for him.

And Enlightenment!!
It's just another wild goose chase, no one makes it.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Dr. F,

Since JL and Werner are fair and generous partners in this discussion, I want JL to explain this in very simple words to us.

I've been trying to get it for over a year, and wish that SOMEBODY would give a convincing argument for Spirit or Soul, or whatever is along those lines.

Of course we haven't found anything like this from a material, or what I would call Nature, it requires extraordinary evidence. Even if that evidence is of a circumstantial nature I would like to hear it.

What I don't want to deal with are any links to Creationist websites, whose Geology pages are at a third grade level and were written to fit the biblical accounts. When it comes to Earth History, which is my area, they are downright foolish. Klimmer posted a few links like this, and I admit to reading them now and then just to understand where all of these people are coming from, but to force all that we know about Nature into the first two pages of Genesis just doesn't work. Period. End of story.

I'm not interested in it from a religious view, which I'm bored of, but JL approaches it from a non-religious view, or so he says, and I have no reason to doubt his experiences.

Ed's explanation above is consistent with my viewpoint, but I want to hear the other viewpoint that JL is always trying, and failing, to even explain, in small words that I can understand, what Spirit is.

He started out his What is Mind? thread with an immediate attack on science, calling it "Scientism," a word that I'm not familiar with. Then he calls us gross materialists, and frankly, I don't think he means to play nice when he uses those words, which do nothing but set up a characterization of how inquisitiveness works so that he can attack it. Call it Straw Man or Weasle Words if you want to get into debate, but I cringe a little when he uses those words.

I want some proof or a good theory. A theory is just an idea in this sense. Ideas are always welcome in my camp.

Being uncivil isn't cool. I actually regret those who offended Go-B. He wasn't harming anything, and you can just not read his posts if you like.

That is part of his faith. Try to convert others. He wasn't being militant about it. I think that he was wronged.
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Simple

From now on (next year or more) "watch" when someone (or you) says "I" with real emphasis.

If the person makes a hand gesture for emphasis they will point to their heart and not to their head.

The heart is the seat of the soul for the human being.

Watch when the say they've made a mistake or some other mental thing.

Thy will point to their head (brain) when such a gesture is made.

You can do the experiment.

No religion or anything is required.

And do the fuking experiment for cripes sakes!!!!! LOL

:-)

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 20, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
certainly matters that are usually defined as "spiritual" are entirely contained within the subjective domain... that is, we experience them...


One of the illusions that I had going into a long term meditation practice is that there were human realities that lay outside of my own subjectivity. Slowly it becomes obvious that even the most objective take I might have on any person, place or thing is only perceived as content, by me, as a subject having an objective experience.

The belief that there are real things "out there" is likely a Hilbert Space-like construct and projection of our rational minds, especially the duality of "it" and "me."

These are not easy ideas to experience directly because the mind is always trying to organize things so evaluate, placing reality "out there" for proper study by "me," right here, seemingly separate from "that."

It is truly mind-boggling.

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
It is truly mind-boggling. Yes

So things aren't real???
When you fall off the top of El Cap, you won't get hurt, because it's Not real???
It was just a projection of my mind!!

truly mind-boggling.
and irrational, so it won't help Base nor me



Werner,
I did your experiment and I pointed to my Head, what does that mean, that I live in my brain?
What if I don't have arms, how can I point?
How about after your dead, and you don't need a heart nor fingers, then where do you point?

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Hey JL
are we having a Fund Rasier for you this Spring at Josh?
I hope it's still on!

I still have the beagle that was found on the Lost Pencil, I'll bring him out
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 20, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
It is truly mind-boggling. Yes

So things aren't real???
When you fall off the top of El Cap, you won't get hurt, because it's Not real???
It was just a projection of my mind!!
-


What I am saying is that what is real is your experience. It is all you can call your own. It is only our mind objectifyng our experience that givesw us the impression that "falling off El Cap" can be something "ourside" of your subjective, 1st person bubble.

jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 20, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
Will we ever get beyond our limitations at grasping certain aspects of “reality?”

Jake, my Corgi, talked be into doing a mathematical model of part of his reality: I solve a series of quadratic equations and write on a blackboard either “R” or “C” – depending upon whether the solutions are real or complex numbers. When I write an R he gets a cookie. Nothing when I write a C. After a while he understands that my model is predictive and that pleases him, for he understands why he gets a cookie. Math works for him, even though he doesn’t quite understand it, nor does he really understand the reality it predicts.

When I was a kid in the late 1940s and Atomic Bombs were in the news frequently, my teachers would describe an atom as being like a big marble surrounded by orbiting electrons that were like BBs. I visualized this perfectly and felt comfortable with it. Then, later I read of QM and was puzzled at the wave-particle duality. I could visualize each (although I don’t think the “waves” are really like ocean waves), but could not construct a mental image of the duality. What lay beneath this fickle posturing of subatomic reality? The law of the excluded middle – an observation arising out of everyday experience – seemed violated somehow.

And what of some mathematicians who claim to be able to “visualize” four dimensions? I’ve never met one of these people, but when I watch the fascinating computer graphic videos of a 4-D object rotating in and out of three dimensions, all I really see are moving lines and curves on a 2-D screen displaying 3-D objects. But then I am old and growing senile and am perhaps without hope of ever gaining this marvelous perception.

My question is simple: will humans evolve to the point that mental “images” of such exotic concepts become easily accessible and part of one’s normal experience? Or will we always be limited to conceptualizing using mundane observations that we acquire as we grow up? Is it possible to imagine something that is not a combination of everyday common visual observations? If you have taken druggie trips have you seen anything that is not simply a weird conglomeration of ordinary visual images? Do you “see” something you are certain is astoundingly new and not fantastic permutations of normal objects? I’m not talking about mixing of the senses.

When we speak of spirit or soul a similar problem arises.


;>|
MH2

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
It is only our mind objectifyng our experience that givesw us the impression that "falling off El Cap" can be something "ourside" of your subjective, 1st person bubble.


What do you mean "only our mind?" Don't you think it is important that our mind can tell us that falling off El Cap could have a consequence that our subjective 1st person bubble could not protect us from?
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
Yes I have had psychedelic experiences way beyond this earthly human reality. Taking psychedelics alone in silent darkness is a much different experience than just "partying" with friends and seeing silly colors. Separate the two in your definition of psychedelic experiences.

I have been given a complete lucid understanding of literally everything spiritual to physical, the meaning of it all, and a zillion other wacky adventures like living multiple lifetimes in complete alien dimensions, or experiencing my future, physical death, madness. I have seen objects that are just impossible creations, insanely ornate objects changing and pulsing in colors and crystalline faces, hard like glass but flowing like ooze that self replicate into even more insanely intricate objects. These are things my brain could not have possibly dreamed up. The psychedelic experience is a direct gift from god.

Most of these experiences the normal functioning human brain just cannot comprehend, so after the experiences all I am left with are fleeting feelings in my heart. But once experienced I just feel like I am no longer seeking those things. There is a saying "once you get the message, hang up the phone"

Many people will never acknowledge these experiences as spiritual. It is a huge blow to the ego that someone can do this after taking a "drug" when they have devoted decades to meditation and spiritual dogma. Those types can continue to persue meditating into eternity, perfecting kundalini techniques....which is all well and good but many end up just chasing their own tail....or their own shadow. And here, now in this world, it is all completely irrelevant. We aren't living this life in the land of blood and bones just to meditate back to the oneness.

Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
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