Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 12841 - 12860 of total 22937 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:17pm PT
Bruce Kay - the best little bit of scripture that resonates with me is, "God helps those who help themselves." ...
That is not found in the Bible.

edit: Jan - "It's actually a Puritan saying..."

Never heard that before!

"The phrase originated in ancient Greece, occuring in approximately equivalent form as one of Aesop's Fables. ... Althogh it has been commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin, the modern english wording appears earlier in Algernon Sidneys work (1623-1683/English politician/philospher)." ~ Wiki

I seriously doubt that the "Puritans" would declare that, since it is in conflict with the doctrine of God's grace, etc!!

"Cleanliness is next to Godliness." - that's another one that is not scriptural, but often attributed to the bible.

Just like the false doctrine of the "Prosperity Gospel" that is promoted by a small (but they have captured, mislead and defrauded a wide audience through tv/the mass media, etc) segment of the current day Church, I'm sure there were also some back then.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:14am PT
It's actually a Puritan saying, one of many ways the Puritans perverted the original message of Jesus. Perhaps their greatest perversion however, was the teaching that those who prosper materially are obviously favored by God and those who are poor are not. You can't get much further from the Gospel of Jesus than that. The modern day equivalent as Base is always pointing out is the new "Prosperity Gospel".
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 19, 2013 - 05:25am PT
Splitter-

Interesting. So now I wonder about a whole lot of other Puritan sayings some of my relatives passed down.

Waste not, want not.

Idle hands are the devil's workshop

Cleanliness is next to Godliness

Of course part of the Puritan's idea of grace was that everyone should think like they did. They tarred and feathered and hung Quakers on Boston Common.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 19, 2013 - 08:24am PT
I'm not surprised to hear that Splitter although i'm not sure it makes a difference in the context it was used and It certainly was a traditional saying in my neck of the woods (left coast mult- cult). Funny enough, I thought for a second about referencing that term to "scripture" as I certainly had no idea but I figured I would get corrected if off the mark. Sorry to abuse the scripture through association!

Out here we have another saying - "Lightness is next to godliness" which is said in reference to ski touring and the absolute need to minimize the amount of crap you carry to truly soar with the gods (or if your prefer, god in the singular). I suppose it is just an evolution of language, much like "hey check out my new pimpin' skis dude!"
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 08:45am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 10:03am PT
since we have forgotten the origins of most of our cultural heritage going back millions of years, with a few moldy texts going back only 2000-5000 years, and all buried in a immense deluge of socially manipulated disinformation materials in the past 10-200 years...




remind me just how it is that we think we know the origins of all this 'wisdom'?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 10:21am PT
might be tough to "locate" something as subjective as a soul


returning to my earlier analogy...it's like fish trying to discover water in the ocean


we have no way to perceive it, because we ARE it


we have no way to describe it, because words/symbols are restricted to describing discrete aspects of our limited perceived reality


we can use words/math/symbols to describe some of its properties, but such descriptions are not understanding its basic nature or extent



the words and symbols we try to use are so overloaded with opinions and misunderstandings as to be nearly useless for communication except between people who already share agreed upon opinions...witness the several schools of thought represented in this thread...



communication about it is superfluous, because it is everything and everywhere, including the words and the speakers and listeners



only by quieting all the chatter can you be aware of it



take a deep breath, quiet all thought...




THERE, that's IT...




now do you see?



(oh well...it's worth the try...)




incidentally that is also the way to do a challenging climbing move, so this post is on topic
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 10:25am PT
WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A SOUL?

I see no reason for a soul to exist
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 10:46am PT
since I have some time
I will present a introduction to plant recovery

This plant would have been dead in another 3 months from slow rot it developed on it's side if I hadn't done anything.
Since it was worth saving, I performed surgery on it, and cut out the rot in a sterile manner,
Now I leave it out to dry for a month, then it gets to go in the soil.
Credit: Dr. F.

This grafted plant grew into the graft stock and crushed it, basically it killed itself, (I guess it didn't have feelings that could control motor functions to save itself)
Credit: Dr. F.
I cut out the dead tissue, but it rotted anyway, and ended up in the trash bin.

This plant was doing good for a couple years, then I put it in a bigger pot, it rotted 3 months later, and not a single cell was left.
This was the Only plant of it's kind on it's own roots in America at the time, and one of my favorite pets.
Basically, I wasn't careful enough when repotting, and maybe watered it to soon, which just points to the obvious, I am responsible for all plant growth or death, They live or die depending on my care. Most of these plants live in a greenhouse, and hence no rain..
Credit: Dr. F.
Trash Bin


Here are some seedling pots
This one is over a year old, and if I died, they would get thrown out so fast
What the heck are you growing there Dr. F?
Dinteranthus pole-evansii, one of the most difficult and slow growing mesembs there are. Just tiny specs, and if one dies, you won't miss it.
Credit: Dr. F.

Here is pot of 2 year olds
Wow!
Credit: Dr. F.

If I can get them to the size of a pea, I can sell them for $6 each
If I can get them this big, then I can get $12 for one.
Credit: Dr. F.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 19, 2013 - 10:47am PT
I am in the middle of some drudgery work and it crossed my mind that since we get quizzed so much on the material universe, this isn't a discussion until somebody explains the following:

1) Spirit

2) Spiritual

3) Spiritual Universe

Have at it, JL. Use small words that we all know, if you will. Seriously. I'm not trying to be a jerk here.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 10:49am PT
Base, add Soul to the question list please
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:11am PT
I saw this newsbit about the Higgs Boson. Apparently the universe is going to eventually self destruct at the speed of light.

http://news.yahoo.com/subatomic-calculations-indicate-finite-lifespan-universe-225300183.html

Ed, Help us!

Klimmer, is this the apocalypse? Where do I go sign up for eternal life?

If the Universe ceases to exist, where do the souls go?
MH2

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:11am PT
There are things we pick up from the context in which we hear about them or experience them. Words help but the feelings may go back to a time before we had writing or speech.


How do you feel when you listen to Bob Dylan? For me his lyrics and his voice invoke a lot of feelings but explanations and attempts to understand what he means seem beside the point. We don't need to understand everything. What we mean by soul is probably one of those things.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:20am PT
WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A SOUL?


i don't think anyone who understands the concept is saying that there has to be a soul



I see no reason for a soul to exist

correct...i agree with you...and sympathize with your struggle to understand what we are trying to talk about...




we are all here trying to understand basic concepts for which there are no adequate words...words are just not an adequate tool for the job...words just get in the way of awareness and understanding...cluttering the mind and preventing awareness...


those with some glimmer of understanding are trying to use words to tell you to stop trying to use words...as symbolic representations are inadequate for the job of awareness

once awareness occurs, then one can attempt to use words to describe the awareness

those words communicated to someone who is unaware...finds the words to be babel...


...with all due respect to you...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:44am PT
i went through a long period in my study of Artificial Intelligence, when i struggled with trying to understand how it is that people can convey so much information to each other in conversation, when the I/O rate is so pedestrian in comparison to computers

and yet we have such a struggle to correctly capture concepts in a computer that is capable of high speed logic and information capture and transfer


when i finally figured it out, i felt pretty dumb that it took me so long to understand



i realized that we aren't just using the words to transfer information

in face-to-face conversation we are using words as a shorthand reference to large bodies of common experience in the world

if you lack a common experience base, or worse yet conflicting views of the world, then words are not good tools for sharing understanding


for example, if you meet someone for the first time at a party and they ask you about recreation and you mention rock climbing...

if they respond being afraid of heights and not wanting to approach a ladder...then you can guess your conversation regarding rock climbing will be very limited

however if they respond having done NIAD...then you may be off and running for an interesting evening of conversation...

you share a common experience base that can be discussed and manipulated with an economy of words...

with the other person, you would have to do a great deal of describing and overcoming misunderstandings that would probably be quite frustrating to both of you...

i started calling these things 'experiential models' and focused most of my subsequent professional career on how to capture and share these

NASA now calls this professional field 'Model-based Systems Engineering'
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
when i first started thinking about 'experiential models', i started by looking around to see how we capture these


after a while i concluded that we don't


and worst yet, we think we do (which stops the learning process cold)



Example:

You pick up an interesting novel and start reading it...the words string along from page to page and you are captured by it into a world of the author's devising...hence you share the author's model of this fictional world

However:

a good novelists knows about shared common experiences, such as hailing a cab, entering a building, standing in line for airline security, etc...and builds a fictional world using an economy of words based upon knowing the target audience for the novel

once that fictional world has been built in the readers mind, then the plot can be unfolded in interesting ways within the readers imagination


But, if the reader does not share or know about all those 'experiential models' assumed by the novelist, the plot falls dead and the book is uninteresting to the reader



Another example:

you hire a fresh physics PhD staff member, and invite them into a spacecraft technical design meeting as a way of introducing them to the working team

at the meeting the discussion rattles along about thrust vector control, hypergolics valving, control moment gyros, ablative nozzles, etc

after the meeting you tell the new staff member that now they understand the overall system, you would like them to look into pogo effects in the thruster supply lines...

within a few days you realize they don't have a clue...all the verbal discussions didn't resonate with the staff members experience base, and you have to start over with a tour of the space museum...

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
Tom,

is not the word "soul" a purely modern human creation to define the essence that goes on after physical death, assuming it does?

is it fair to assume that your personal belief in a soul is pretty much the same as your own belief in life after death?

let's say that your zygote was born around 10.000 years ago and your entire socialization was based upon not words but gestures and utterances, and therefore the very concept of afterlife or soul never entered your consciousness

and it never occurred to you that death was not final, and nothing of you went on

would you then agree that you, back then, existed the same as any mammal or plant in that you were born, lived, and died, and that was it.....end of story?

if you can imagine that, then would you consider that it is only human "arrogance", hubris, or really strong wishful thinking, that is behind the very concept of a soul?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Death is a big part of exotic plant culture, and the way we deal with death is ...
ready for it...

THE TRASH BIN

But I have more plants, I have seeds, I have cuttings... a new plant will fill the spot of the dead
It' my own little "Wonderland of Rocks" in my Garden, First Ascents around every corner

compost my beloved???
Wrong

No. 1 reason not to:
I don't want rotting plants crawling with bugs anywhere Near my living plants. The possiblity of having disease spread is too high.

2) I don't want to see my beloved rotting in a pile of other trash.

3) Out of Sight, Out of Mind


Dr. F, i think we are all finding your work with plants to be very interesting, and the views that i have about your work might be rather suprising to you if we were to get together sometime in your green house

(how about a sequestered compost pile at least?)

I do recommend reading Edible Forest Gardens (2 volume set) [Dave Jacke, Eric Toensmeier] on Amazon.com


granted that you are not raising your plants for a food supply, none-the-less interesting reading about inter-relationships, communication, and mutual support within plant communities

Edit:

some of your challenges with these plants are probably due to trying to raise them in jail separate from all the other members of their community
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
if you can imagine that, then would you consider that it is only human "arrogance", hubris, or really strong wishful thinking, that is behind the very concept of a soul?

It is that very arrogance and hubris that keeps most from being able to consider such outrageous things as the lack of a spirit and the lack of a soul. Asking a person to put aside their arrogance is like asking someone to discard their sense of touch.

Dave
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Credit: splitter

spirit = fellowship with God

soul = will, emotions, intellect

body = physical world. senses/hands, feet, voice
Messages 12841 - 12860 of total 22937 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews