Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:02am PT
I have a lot of hostility when it comes to the history of the Earth being grossly taught according to the biblical account of Genesis. For instance he created stars on the 4th day. Wrong.

That is something I know a lot about. Oil and gas are found in sedimentary basins. Hydrocarbon bearing basins are intensely studied due to their economic significance. Fossils are uniquely found in sedimentary rocks, as well as the depositional environments of each cycle of sedimentation.

This topic is so well studied, by thousands of scientists, and I study it every day. It is as plain as day. If you want to ignore this, and go to creationist websites or even the hilarious Creationism Museum.

This is simple stuff, the basics of historical geology. It is a freshman level class, usually the second class you will take in most curriculums. The science is literally rock solid.

Teaching creationism is just a silly way of teaching the incorrect version, usually the book of Genesis. It is incorrect.

Evolution is another one. I'm not a paleontologist, but I've studied it in the past. I do see fossils on a regular basis, and it fits quite well with evolution. Extremely well.

The account given in the book of genesis is false. It is a narrative that is the result of the ignorance at the time in which it was written. If you want to believe that, OK. Just don't try to sneak it into the science classroom, because it does not belong there. It belongs in the theological classroom.

I am pretty laid back about people who are religious. My family is religious, and I have had a lot of fun conversations with my father, who was a computer science professor. He is a devout Christian, but knows not to tangle with me when it comes to the history of the Earth and the history of the Universe.

Here is a Republican's thoughts on science. He is on the House Science, Space and Technology Committee, and made some recent remarks about science and Christianity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge64kMFoQEo

He calls evolution and other sciences "Lies Straight From The Pit of Hell." He also claims that from his knowledge of science that the Earth is only 9000 years old.

Look. We didn't go looking for a 4 billion year old Earth. We look at the evidence, and the entire rock record across the entire planet simply does not fit the Genesis account.

One native American creation myth has humans coming out of a hollow log.

This just doesn't fit. It is such a poor fit for the physical evidence that anyone who believes the literal account of the book of Genesis is being willfully ignorant. All of this study can be found in any large university science library. The University of Oklahoma has a large geosciences department, and the geology library is larger than our city library. You just need to go read a little of it, or go take some geology classes.

It would be great if it all fit Genesis and Noah's great flood, but it doesn't. At all. It is like getting mad over Newton's laws of motion.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:50am PT
I think the absolute proof of god is when He told Mosses to cut off his foreskin.
I mean, come on. Who else but god would have known there was a pretty little
helmet underneath that mask?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:56am PT
I have read the book of Genesis. God created the Universe in 6 days and rested on the seventh. The order in which things were created, particularly the fact that Adam appeared pronto, are false. We know that the Universe took a lot longer than 6 days.

So God got upset about Eve eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge (maybe here is where we find the dislike of science) and they were cast out more or less.

Then Noah showed up and he was a good guy. When he was 600 years old he was ordered to build the Ark so that God could flood the Earth. All animals got on board the Ark.

OK. There have been some big floods in the past, but they were local, and we know that by the time humans showed up, the crustal plates were pretty much as they appear now. Humans are that recent in the history of the planet.

There is a long history of who was born to who and how long they lived. The shortest lifetime that I noticed was 160 years. Noah died 350 years after the flood, making him 950 years old.

This is how people try to date the Earth using the Torah, the Bible, or the Koran. Genesis is the first book in the Torah and the Bible. I'm not sure about the Koran. I've tried to read the Koran, but it is so violent that I couldn't handle it.

None of this checks out. There was never a great flood which covered the entire Earth, and not only life existed all over the planet in areas unknown to the writers of Genesis, including man, there is no evidence of a great flood. Perhaps they were trying to understand marine fossils appearing on dry land.

It isn't that long. There are some boring parts, but some of it is very specific regarding the history of the planet and the universe. In those verses, they are almost universally incorrect.

Believe it if you like, but by the time that man was settled down into its agrarian existence, humans had migrated to all continents. The Mormons explain this fact by stating that they are lost tribes of Israel.

Slick. This does not fit with physical evidence.

The science of geology is a very broad topic. Every aspect of rocks and fossils have been studied intensely. Our quest for knowledge is certainly not finished, but the basics about the Universe from the astronomers and the basics of the planet are well known and not that complicated. You could pick it up in two years of study. If you go for a doctorate, it is likely that you will study a very specific and limited aspect of geology. There are guys that spend their entire lives studying the mineralogy of silicious melts, for instance. If you can think of it, usually someone else has as well. There isn't just one little book of geology. There is enough to fill very large libraries, and this is just earth science, not counting meteorology, which has its own enormous library.

So I just read the book of Genesis. Besides just the ten commandments, God told Moses an awful lot of other rules that are discussed in Leviticus.

Do you want me to go into Leviticus and its crazy rules that no Christian follows? The entire first half has a lot to do with burnt offerings, and the second half goes into slaying your enemies and your crops failing for certain transgressions.

I don't see how you can pull that homosexual line out of Leviticus and hold it to be true while ignoring all of the other rules.

edit: I just read it here:

http://www.allonlinebible.com/Genesis/1.html

There is a new version of the Bible which changes things from the KJV. I didn't like that one.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2013 - 11:50am PT
I think the absolute proof of god is when He told Mosses to cut off his foreskin.

That is the most ludicrous absolute proof of God I ever heard

Man couldn't figure out how to cut his foreskin without God?
Yes he could.

I am 100% with Base, The bible is a book of mythology, nothing more

If you want to learn about God, you will have to step away from the bible and learn what science has taught us
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Mar 24, 2013 - 11:57am PT


Amen!!!...

WBraun

climber
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Man can not do anything without God.

Not even one breath can be done with out God.

You may "think" with your so called "science" that you can breath without God but you will fail.

"The soul is floating in the five kinds of air [prāṇa, apāna, vyāna, samāna and udāna], is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities.

When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
Doctor Leads Quest for Safer Ways to Care for Patients

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/science/09conv.html?_r=0

"Catheters are inserted into the veins near the heart before major surgery, in the I.C.U., for chemotherapy and for dialysis. The C.D.C. estimates that 31,000 people a year die from bloodstream infections contracted at hospitals this way. So I thought, “This can be stopped. Hospital infections aren’t like a disease there’s no cure for.” I thought, “Let’s try a checklist that standardizes what clinicians do before catheterization.” It seemed to me that if you looked for the most important safety measures and found some way to make them routine, it could change the picture.The checklist we developed was simple: wash your hands, clean your skin with chlorhexidine, try to avoid placing catheters in the groin, if you can, cover the patient and yourself while inserting the catheter, keep a sterile field, and ask yourself every day if the benefits of catheterization exceed the risks."

"We then took this to 100 intensive care units at 70 hospitals in Michigan. We measured their infection rates, implemented the checklist, worked to get a more cooperative culture so that nurses could speak up. And again, we got it down to a near zero. We’ve been encouraging hospitals around the country to set up similar checklist systems."
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:12pm PT


"When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited."...

Is that similar to passing gas???...

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
I never meant to say that Christians are wrong, Dr. F. All I'm saying is that a literal interpretation of Genesis doesn't work.

I make no pronouncements about the existence of God. That is something that I don't know.

Teaching the bible's creation myth as science is ludicrous. That is the only thing that I am saying. There are many bible passages that Christians feel quite free to interpret in different ways. I think that they should just look at Genesis as an allegory.

That is all that I am saying. As for the existence of God, I have no idea either way, and when I was in my early teens, it was a problem that I really struggled with.

I don't worry about it so much now. I don't regret going to church and having that experience as a youngster, although I do remember the sermons as being long, complicated, and boring.

Methodists are very calm and loving. Most of the newer churches are from the Pentecostal arm of Christianity. They blow a fuse over communion. Some of the more whacko types of Christians think that other sects are going to hell.

Baptists vs. Catholics is a good one.

Did I ever tell the story of getting saved in a Baptist Church? I was totally set up, and for a Methodist, it seemed extremely weird.
WBraun

climber
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
Base -- "All I'm saying is that a literal interpretation of Genesis doesn't work."

Yes, so true.

It will not work like that.

It takes intelligence not "Blind" following ......
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
My whole problem with Largo is that I think that his ideas are faith and spirituality. He claims that they are not supernatural, and regarding meditation, I readily admit that meditation is a physically observable phenomenon, and monks who have meditated for their entire lives have a surprising control of their autonomic nervous system. They can control heart rate very well, for instance.

Have any of you tried to slow your heart rate? It is interesting and fun to do. I found that you do have to be very still, ignore any outside noise, and just concentrate on your heart.

JL seems to be squeaking through the tiny gap between theism and atheism, but it is pretty plain to see that he is a theist of sorts. I just wish that he would admit it rather than go through this convoluted argument that nobody understands.

Having a supernatural faith isn't some type of scarlet letter. Most of the world believes in some religion or other.

That is just my impression. Only he knows what he is doing.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:20pm PT

This is how people try to date the Earth using the Torah, the Bible,

False.

Chronological dating back to Noah an then back to Adam does not work for predicting
The age of the Earth. READ CLOSER. He created plants on the third day. Animals on the fifth
Day. And Man on the sixth day. And told them to multiply. The seventh day He rested.
Then he created Adam and put him in th garden. After the seventh day! The Earth was already formed and growing. There where already people inhabiting the world when Adam
Was added.
I'm amazed at how many "Christians" don't even understand this point.
I believe God used the term "day" for a spiritual lesson. After all He didn't add
the Sun until the forth day. So there COULD NOT literally be the first three days in the way
we understand the meaning of a day. The first day could have been a billion years. And so forth.
So you see Adam was not created in the first "week" of creation. Adam may be 6-10 thousand
years old, But NOT the Earth!

So one should not condem what he doesn't understand..
Read it for yourself. Then ask God for understanding.
He WILL answer you!
This is how He works..
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
He created plants on the third day. Animals on the fifth
Day. And Man on the sixth day. And told them to multiply. The seventh day He rested.
Then he created Adam and put him in th garden. After the seventh day! The Earth was already formed and growing. There where already people inhabiting the world when Adam
Was added.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:39pm PT


"I believe God used the term "day" for a spiritual lesson. After all He didn't add
the Sun until the forth day. So there COULD NOT literally be the first three days in the way
we understand the meaning of a day."
...


An oversight from the writers of the story...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 24, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
An oversight from the writers of the story...

peyote was known to be plentiful .....

photo not found
Missing photo ID#295588
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Mar 24, 2013 - 02:01pm PT


LOL!!!...

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 24, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Thanks Norton
I hope this helps communicate to you my idea of the time-line?

I wanna Thank You and All for probing this question!
A few months ago I may have given you a different answer.
I think my attitude was that of the average christian
that the origin of the Earth wasnt that important.
Gods word is eternal. Infine.
So if a Christian is not worried about the END. There aint much concern about the begining.
From these months of seeking and reflection,
And being in prayer with Our Heavenly Father.
This is what i believe He has shown me. Thus far...

Keep on Seek'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 24, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Bob Marley wrote;

Some people feel the rain, others just get wet..
___

Locker,
You and Blitzo should've just stayed at my house. I was going to show you
some fun FA's right across the street..
Maybe next time?
Blocr
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 24, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
Thanks Norton
I hope this helps communicate to you my idea of the time-line?

you're welcome, Blue

and yes, I believe that you have made clear exactly where you stand

keep the faith, Blue, we know that you will...
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