Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 12741 - 12760 of total 23258 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 23, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
"If you don't want me to ridicule your beliefs, don't believe such ridiculous things."
+1
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 23, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Are some of you recent posters,Werner obviously excluded,actually claiming you were duped by the media,war and political machine into believing the rationale for the Iraq war as presented. Maybe i was biased by the negativity of not wanting my then teenage sons to be chewed up and spit out over nothing, but i knew in real time that what was being represented and regurgitated were colossal lies.
jstan

climber
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Don:
My point on GPS is illustrated in the link directly below. No need to read Einstein's original publication.

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

The central point I was trying to make with that reference is that a scientific theory's value is realized only when it allows calculations to be made that predict measured data. This is why measurement of Mercury's perihelion was front page news. Many people focus their attention first and foremost upon the theory. This is backwards. Always look first to see if calculations with the theory predict well what is measured. If it does, then you may just have something.

This is a religion thread. When I said "scientists do not believe anything I was using the meaning for belief that has been attached by christian fundamentalists. To wit:

One believes something if it is accepted as being true without any data supporting it having been presented.

There is an associated inference. Since data was unimportant to the original acceptance, any data that contravenes what was accepted, is also unimportant.

By the current definition there is no way to dislodge a belief using data.



Finally
Another way to look at the possibility that we live in a fully probabilistic reality. When a photon or an electron goes from point A to point B it actually goes by all possible paths between those two points with calculable probabilities. Humans weigh quite a bit more than an electron and we can't do this. Indeed it would be very nice if we could. Think about it. That way we could both marry this girl and not marry this girl and see which worked out better.

Now our having to make decisions with incomplete data produces a lot of angst in our lives. So much angst we make up stories and actually think they are true so as to control the angst and lack of certainty; and our not having the absolute truth.

Perhaps we have religion just because we have a weight problem. Get rid of the weight problem and we will be fully probabilistic. Now we do not know a great deal about the states of matter in a black hole, but weight is put into an entirely different paradigm.

It is just possible there is no need for religion at the center of a black hole.

TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
Religion belongs to the infancy of man.
TY
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
It is just possible there is no need for religion at the center of a black hole.
There is no need for religion at my house, either.
Unless you are a sowbug.
MH2

climber
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
That way we could both marry this girl and not marry this girl and see which worked out better.


Are those all the possibilities?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
It is just possible there is no need for religion at the center of a black hole.
---


I can't speak for religion, but is it just possible there is no need for slide rules in a foxhole when the mortars start going off or all sides.

I also have to wonder about the common belief that all religious aspirations are existential responses to doubt, suffering and fear, or at any rate, to some perceived lack, real or imagined. IME, at least some of the religious types are seeking truth, thought it might not be of the probabalistic kind.

JL
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Mar 23, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Base -

If we could teach 2nd graders the basics of critical thinking, then we would be better off as a species.

 Thank you for clearing that up. I thought for a moment that you had no idea what the basis for the scientific method was….Not that I know the depths of the SM… just that at its base.. it is….. critical thinking.

Cheers
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
rick
I said there were no WMD before we invaded
My wife heard it loud and clear over and over
few of us were duped, then nor now
They are still spewing the same (but different) set of lies, Iran building Nuclear weapons being one of them

You don't have a monopoly on being able to suss out the BS around here,
some of us are experts at it
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
Well good Dr. there are plenty of lies being proffered by both sides of our political system. It's my sincere hope that the good peoples of this country could wake up to that reality. Perhaps this forum,with it's polarized and forcefully offered opinions would be a good place to start.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Religion isn't so much a search for truth as it is a search for control.
Cue Nietzsche, Burroughs....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
Tell me about the history of the Earth. You can extend it to Astronomy and Biology as well.

The Universe is 8 minutes old and it is already millions of light years wide.

Seriously, if you have been even merely tangentially acquainted with my prior posts you would know that I am not the sort to whom you would easily pose that question .

I am an agnostic who nonetheless respects the spiritual inclination in my fellow humans, whatever form that may take. In the same way I accept and respect most forms of creative art , even though I may be at odds with the technique or the intent. I also respect science and technology tremendously.
I regard spirituality , broadly defined, as an essential expressive form of the human experience.
Throughout the history of our species the spiritual impulse has made itself a more or less permanent fixture of human life.
This in itself means something. A very profound something.
Human groups , wherever and whatever their context, are consistently spiritual. There are no native tribes that are atheistic. There is no MauMau tribe in Borneo or somewhere that prostrate themselves before a 'no god' or 'gods'

The usual explanation proffered by the scientifically -inclined ,modern existential on-the-go ,active, hipster, has always been something like:
"These poor ignorant pre-scientific humans , unlike us, the ultra-informed cognoscenti , were simply looking for an explanation for the indiscernible cosmos . We , on the other hand, smartened-up by science, now have solved the riddle of existence"

Well, slick, until you have truly solved the riddle of existence I am putting you essentially on the same level as the tribe that believes an eternally gestating frog god is at the center of all existence.
Have you solved the riddle of existence?

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
rick
I would have to disagree
we should discuss this on the other thread
But what lies are the Democrats and Obama shoving down our throats??

Fact based vs. fantasy based
two completely different realities

Just like religion
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
Primitive people were/are not trying to understand the universe through religion, they were/are attempting to control it.
This can't be stressed enough.
Ditto for science, but it does a much better job of both.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:50pm PT

Tell me about the history of the Earth. You can extend it to Astronomy and Biology as well.

Base, sure seems that you have a lot of angst toward the idea of the world being less than
10k yrs old. I hope you know this theory comes from scholars trying to figure out meanings
through biblical codes. Mostly I think to predict the last days. But, it does NOT say that
anywhere in the KJV Bible. I hope you keep your angst pointed toward those people's theory.
And NOT the Bible! Ur always challenging us to read your links. And I do. Well when was the last time you read Genisis? I challenge you to read the 1st book and tell me how olds the
Earth.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
Okay Dr., maybe your right,so as not to disturb the deep "Thinkers" puzzling out the riddles of the wider universal truths perhaps the merely political should be discussed on another channel. However ,i refuse to get into the pissing match exhibition of your other most popular thread. Why don't you start another thread titled something like "The peoples points of agreement".
Don't you think it would be much more productive (as climbers or former climbers) to start on common ground?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:08am PT
Religion isn't so much a search for truth as it is a search for control.


To some extent this is true, though there is just as much diversity within the religious community as there is outside of it - at least that was my sense of it when I studied philosophy in a seminary. So yu can expect many and various approaches.

Where you lose your way is in thinking the "control" issues only and always concern outside people, places and things. It's mainly an inside job. Old time medicine men might have been trying to control malaria, or whatever - to little effect - but you can be sure there were those who looked up into the night sky and wondered what, if anything, lay beyond the last thought.

You have to cultivate a massive capacity to listen in such moments, otherwise you're simply shoveling ashes or talking to yourself.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:19am PT
No worries, I'm listening. Despite evidence of this limited typed-message format to the contrary.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 24, 2013 - 12:49am PT
Blue said to Base:

Well when was the last time you read Genisis? I challenge you to read the 1st book and tell me how olds the
Earth.

yes, Base

please do read Genesis and take Blue's challenge and report back here how old the earth is!


Wow Blue, interesting it is now you asking that question as I asked you that very question at least three or even four times and you absolutely refused to give a number in years, in fact you said the earth's age is "whatever the bible says it is".

so I am curious what a true scientist like Base will say when he reads Genesis...aren't you too?
Messages 12741 - 12760 of total 23258 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews