Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 12, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
The sci-fi guru Roger Zelazny tackled this eloquently, pretty sure I've quoted this before:

The Nameless, of which we are all a part, does dream form. And what is the highest attribute any form may possess? It is beauty. The Nameless, then, is an artist. The problem, therefore, is not one of good or evil, but one of aesthetics. To struggle against those who are mighty among dreamers and are mighty for ill, or ugliness, is not to struggle for that which the sages have taught us to be meaningless in terms of Samsara or Nirvana, but rather it is to struggle for the symmetrical dreaming of a dream, in terms of the rhythm and the point, the balance and the antithesis which will make it a thing of beauty. Of this, the sages say nothing. This truth is so simple they have obviously overlooked it. For this reason, I am bound by the aesthetics of the situation to call it to your attention. To struggle against the dreamers who dream ugliness, be they men or gods, cannot but be the will of the Nameless. This struggle will also bear suffering, and so one's karmic burden will be lightened thereby, just as it would be by enduring the ugliness; but this suffering is productive of a higher end in the light of the eternal values of which the sages so often speak....
You may ask me, then, 'How am I to know that which is beautiful and that which is ugly, and be moved to act thereby?' This question, I say, you must answer for yourself.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 12, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
Till the judge that you don't have free will and see if he lets you off for nicking that Corvette. The truth is most often found in our behavior, not what we profess to believe. But what might the judge say if yo asked him where a free choice "came from?" We can all understand conditioned responses. But one free of conditioning - how does that happen?

Sounds like a simple question.

JL
WBraun

climber
Feb 12, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
But one free of conditioning - how does that happen?

Dovetail .....
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 12, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
Matthew 6:19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

1 Timothy 6:6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 12, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
Go- be and Blueblocker, I would like to point out to you that I plowed through that ridiulously ponderous pile of text you posted suposedly illustrating the immorality of homosexuality. It was a real god damn chore and I'll tell you its the last god damn time I will read something that is not your own words. Why? Because as usual it was a waste of time. In that whole pile of text therde was not a single explanation as to why homosexuality was immoral or any less or more prone to immorality than heterosexuality. here is a sample:

Based on observing some of the locals who belly up to the bar in the Fairview Inn in Talkeetna, they appear to be selling their teeth for cash. Would see the same folks on the same barstool every year and they always had fewer teeth.

Oops! wrong quote. That is just Donini (another deity to some...) going on about spotting ron anderson in Talkeetna. I meant this:

The word “homosexual” is arsenokoites. Koites is the word for “bed”; arseno is a term for “man,” going to bed with a man. That’s what it means. It means going to bed with a man. People who do that don’t inherit the Kingdom of God. They do not. First Timothy 1:9, realizing the fact that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, ungodly sinners; unholy, profane people who kill their fathers or mothers--murderers, immoral men, and homosexuals. The law of God, the law of God, is made to expose the lawless, rebellious, ungodly sinners; unholy, profane killers of their parents; murderers, immoral men, and homosexuals--that’s not a nice group to belong to. And they will not inherit the Kingdom of God because you have to turn from your sin, repent, confess, and beg for mercy.

etc etc..... you get the idea. It is immoral apparently because god says so. You do not need a eighty thousand word essay to say the same thing over and over. I have news for you. There is evidence here on earth that completely and utterly contradicts this assertion. Thats right - observable evidence beats unsubstantiated assertion any day hands down no matter who claims it.

At one time your preachers claimed the world was flat. Evidence proved them wrong.

You are wrong. The evidence proves it.

I would only add that you should be ashamed of such intellectually stunted conjecture and most certainly for expecting that we would embrace the same. Klimmer - what have you got to say about this?
WBraun

climber
Feb 12, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
At one time your preachers claimed the world was flat. Evidence proved them wrong.

It's still flat.

For a ways .....
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
Klimmer also says that God hates the gays

Very un enlightened
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 12, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
"arseno", we all have one! And that means NO!
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 13, 2013 - 06:46am PT
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth,

photo not found
Missing photo ID#289440


Even when we fall short of the glory of God, He extends His grace, mercy, and forgiveness toward us through Jesus...

Romans 10:12 ...for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

...but will YOU!!!???
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 13, 2013 - 07:17am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#289442
You're asking Klimmer to actually think for himself?

Good luck with that.
WBraun

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 07:48am PT
You're even worst ^^^

You can't even think at all since you're just plain stupid period!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 13, 2013 - 09:30am PT

I'm hopeful as Thomas Friedman...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/opinion/sunday/friedman-revolution-hits-the-universities.html?ref=thomaslfriedman

The process of developing credible credentials that verify that the student has adequately mastered the subject — and did not cheat — and can be counted on by employers is still being perfected by all the MOOCs. But once it is, this phenomenon will really scale.

“There is a new world unfolding,” said Reif, “and everyone will have to adapt.”

Measured not day to day but in "generation time," this is a revolution. Just wish I could be around to see it unfold decade to decade is all.

Lifespan is too short. Then again better human than canine. :)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 13, 2013 - 11:19am PT
one of the reasons why i wish people would use their own names on this forum...

http://m.vice.com/en_ca/read/why-is-barrett-brown-facing-100-years-in-jail


Alongside Abraxas and Cubic on those tax filings is another company called Ntrepid. According to Florida State’s records of corporations, Richard Helms is the director of that company. In 2011, Barrett’s work helped lead the Guardian to their report that Ntrepid won a $2.76 million-dollar contract from Centcom (U.S. Central Command), to create “online persona management” software, also known as “sockpuppetry.” To break it down in plain English, online persona management was created to populate social networks with a bunch of fake and believable social media personas to “influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda.

so who here is a really just a sockpuppet???
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 13, 2013 - 11:50am PT
Me.

I confess, I'm trying to spread pro-secular and pro-science and pro-education shi't.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 13, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
To me, blasphemy is a real term and refers to actual acts - crimes, as it were, not so much against God, but against all sense of decency and truth.

Perhaps the biggest mark against "religion" is when it tries to proffer jive information, attributing the source to "God." Then compound that by insisting that they "know" this is so, which is the very apex of dishonesty and fraud, and a betrayal to their own good sense.

So when I read rants and scripture denouncing this or that group (gays, in this case), see the denouncement as the word or God, then have some knucklehead insist that it's true, and that they "know" it is true, I wonder if evolution will ever reach such a person and correct their thinking. Such ignorance is quite astonishing to come across in 2013.

JL

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 13, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


...I have friends and family that are L&G, and want their domestic partners to get all the benefits offered to married couples. I do believe the bible says it is wrong and I would not vote for a marriage law myself for the same reason, but if it became the law of the land I would accept it. And any harassment of them is absolutely wrong!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 13, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Drf you wrote;

"Klimmer also says that God hates the gays
Very un enlightened"


i only know klimmer from his posts, and im certainly not speaking for him But, I feel a connectedness to his conscience through his communication of the Truths that he posits.
i really don't think u saying "klimmer hates gays" is True. i believe he understands, as I do,
"to hate the sin; not the sinner." Thats a big difference! This is a Christian enlightenment.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 13, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
(Though I'd post this so Jingy would have less doubt about my theism, lack thereof.) :)

 consider yourself redeemed.

Carry on

cheers
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
BB
Yes you are correct
Klimmer did not say that God hates the gay

He did say that God does judge the gay in a very negative way, and he say's, according to the bible, they are sinner's at the very worst level of SIN

and in which, I will make my same conclusion, very unenlightened
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 13, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Everyone sins, and we all need God's forgiveness offered through Jesus, I know I do!
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