Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 22, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
To Krauss, the endless cycles of why? are beside the point. “Science doesn’t need a first cause, religion does,” said Krauss, a vocal atheist who made his distaste for both religion and philosophy known from the get-go. Krauss’s evasions didn’t quite ring true to Holt. “You’re still in thrall to Christian metaphysics,” he charged. “You see the laws of quantum field theory as divine commands. It used to be that nothing plus God equals universe. You replaced God with the laws of nature. You are insufficiently enlightened.”

Blueblocr, the Scientic American article is very interesting but I'm not a believer in some important aspects of modern physics. Such as the big bang theory which is only based on observations of red shifted light from distant stars, and the big bang explanation requires you to turn every other law of physics upside down to accomodate it. Just because the majority of physicists believe it - and there's no reason why physicists would't exhibit the same lemming-like behavior as everyone else - isn't good enough if the theory leads to wrong results.

The many worlds or multiverse theory is not something I can take seriously either. It is certainly a weird enough idea. But is that enough? Or is a theory supposed to prove something, that other theories can't prove? I think what is in the future are probabilities and as time moves on, they convert into realities, and there's no going back. Suppose if the world splits into two world every time you flip a coin, the number of worlds keeps multiplying but the concept should also work in reverse, that there are infinite ways of getting to where we are now. An easy way to overload your brain with these impossible ideas, but what's the point.

I'll bet that someday, instinctive behaviors (although maybe not racism as you mention) will be understood on a physiological level. We're afraid of heights, why? The reason must be something that can someday be understood. I don't think you could point to a certain brain activity for fear of heights, let alone genetics. But someday, maybe so.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 22, 2013 - 09:47pm PT

There are plenty of invisible things that can't be seen, but can still be measured.

Yea like what? Electricity; the Wind. . .
Sure you can take a measurement one minute, but the next minute it's different.
You can say I have an 110v outlet, but when you measure it it's NEVER exactly 110v.
And each subsequent measurement is a little different. Same with my 12v car battery.
Same with the wind. You c an only take multiple measurements and determine an average.

But that surely doesn't give you the knowledge to tell me what electricity is.

Then there's gravity..
WBraun

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
Yes it's true.

Imaginary things can't be measured.

But God is NOT imaginary.

Only stupid people can't understand that .....
jstan

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Such as the big bang theory which is only based on observations of red shifted light from distant stars, and the big bang explanation requires you to turn every other law of physics upside down to accomodate it.Such as the big bang theory which is only based on observations of red shifted light from distant stars, and the big bang explanation requires you to turn every other law of physics upside down to accomodate it.

Very interesting. Let me ask. Don, what data do you accept as valid support for your present views? Is your form of data more successful in predicting the results of measurements than is red shifted light?

And yes, physics has had us on our heads since 1870 or there abouts when we figured out why the sun's light was not all in the ultraviolet. But in the real world the primary consideration is "how do we calculate beforehand, the result we will get from this experiment we are about to perform.


If one imagines there is a god, one can equally well imagine it speaks to us directly every time we do an experiment. There is no evidence of gods however. In 400 years we have found no phenomenon that requires a god to exist. Not one.



And we don't BELIEVE anything. We are practical. If an idea consistently makes the right predictions, we use it to calculate

all the while looking for anyplace at all where the idea may be fallible.

The power in the scientific process is that

it does not believe in anything.

I am coming to think believers are personally simply unable to imagine that such a condition could exist in anyone. That could be the basic communication problem here. The problem is a software bug.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
If one imagines there is a god, one can equally well imagine it speaks to us directly every time we do an experiment. There is no evidence of gods however. In 400 years we have found no phenomenon that requires a god to exist. Not one.


oh boy wait till the village idiot gets that in his simple little head
WBraun

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
In 400 years we have found no phenomenon that requires a god to exist. Not one.

That's because they're stupid.

Only stupid people have been saying stupid sh!t like this for 400 years.

5000 years ago people were much more intelligent then these modern know it alls with their useless "data" and "noise" swelled up in their heads.

Modern people don't have a clue how to turn the noise off either.

Instead they invent stupid drugs to try and turn off the noise and that just fuked themselves all up.

Fools .....
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
I agree!!
only those stupid people are saying stupid shit!!!!!!!!11111111111


why 400 years?
because almost anything that was said or written wasn't based on fact, reality or science 400 years ago

It was based on myths, superstition and fantasy
WBraun

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
You can't agree!

It's against the rules ......
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 22, 2013 - 11:00pm PT

Imaginary things can't be measured.

There are imaginary numbers<

*from the iPhone dictionary*

Imaginary : adj;
1. Existing only in the imagination.
2. Mathematics (of a number or quantity) expressed in terms of the square root of a negative number (usually the square root of -1, represented by i or j).

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 22, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Can a Truth be anything more than imaginary?



Edit:
only those stupid people are saying stupid shit!!!!!!!!11111111111

HaHaHa! Am i what ur Talk'in about?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 22, 2013 - 11:16pm PT

The power in the scientific process is that it does not believe in anything.

This is the one I like
MH2

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
A philosopher (and magician) once wrote:

What Can One Expect from Philosophy?


He put the short answer to that question in the form of a maxim:

Instead of trying to prove your opponent wrong, try to find out in what sense he may be right.

This is a sort of tolerance principle, not too unrelated to that of Carnap. Indeed, it can be thought of as a semantic counterpart to Carnap's principle of tolerance. His principle says that a language should be regarded as acceptable if it is consistent -- or equivalently, if it has a model. My principle is to try to find such a model -- or rather an interesting model of the language.


Raymond Smullyan in 5,000 B.C. and Other Philosophical Fantasies




So, consider Spinoza. Not too much of a jump from Descartes. Spinoza's God is identical to Nature and the rest of the Universe we find around us. To Spinoza, everything we find is in some sense evidence of God, but it is an impersonal God that has no connection with us other than through the material world. Put another way, we are in a Matrix-type situation with us existing inside the mind of God.


But you could also consider the 9-year old's wisdom in the video Spider Savage posted up, and see our God as an Ant running around on a sidewalk in a larger and stranger Universe where it only plays Its little ant-like role.

More of a Men in Black type situation.


Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:15am PT
John S - regarding the big bang theory, you can just change something like, the wavelength of light isn't a constant. Over very long distances it is changing to longer wavelengths, ie lower energy. There is an energy loss, but its so small its only detectable when you look at the farthest objects in the universe. The further away they are, the more energy loss. Its inversely proportional to distance just like the doppler effect, but many things are because of geometry.

What is causing this to happen? I don't know, you can invent a stannard particle or a 11th dimensional string or an unknown property of gravity or dark matter or whatever. Any of those would be better than saying, on the first day, everything in the universe was condensed into a singular point which then exploded and all the different atoms formed from some kind of primeval, unimaginable point which defies all known laws of physics. And all this, because there can be no other explanation for the red shifts, than the doppler effect.
WBraun

climber
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:44am PT
Put another way, we are in a Matrix-type situation with us existing inside the mind of God.

Actual we are part parcel.

We have all the qualities but not the quantity.

And yes .... God is not impersonal.

Just as we are not impersonal.

When we study material nature we can see a perfect, directly imperfect, example of the the true reality.

Thus the mysterious contradictions .......


Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:48am PT
The man said:

"But he also offered hope to those of us trying to experience the concept of nothing: just go to sleep. Every night we all enter into a brief period of dreamless sleep, with our minds free of all thought. “A little taste of nothing,” he called it. Until death or the end of the universe—whichever comes first—this is as close as we can get to truly understanding nothing."

The unconscious broaching of "nothing," as in dreamless sleep, or death, or the sky falling, hardly counts as "experiencing" nothing. Note also that the man is looking at content for an example of nothing, the absence of it meeting his criteria. But it is the mind itself that is no-thing, not the sh#t whipping past.

Not an easy one to wrangle.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 23, 2013 - 01:00am PT

Hatred and bigotry are learned behaviors, Blu.

I don't know Cintune, I myself have witnessed 3and4 yr old kids totally pommel their younger
siblings in order to prove their point. Where DOES this disregard come from at such an early age?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 23, 2013 - 01:33am PT
Well, sure, aggression is definitely part of the human package, but bigotry, anyway, requires indoctrination to channel our violent tendencies against specific targets. Organized religions, of course, have proven paradoxically really good at doing this. "Love is all you need, but watch your back if you're not one of us."
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 23, 2013 - 01:49am PT

But it is the mind itself that is no-thing, not the sh#t whipping past.

The Brain is a thing, made of meat. Foresure! SO what about The Mind.. No-thing..? No Meat..? No Matter..?

What of my memories of yesterday? Are they not real? Yea, they are real because they live on in my imagination. So doesn't that make my imagination a-thing? If my imagination can recall into the past, collect data, and corispond it to the now, and be able to predict a certain emotional outcome from a said experience.

Doesn't that constitute my imagination as being a-thing?
jstan

climber
Mar 23, 2013 - 06:07am PT
The further away they are, the more energy loss. Its inversely proportional to distance just like the doppler effect, but many things are because of geometry.

What is causing this to happen? I don't know,

Don:
I think I recommended to you already the Krauss youtube which has gone viral. Einstein formulated the geometric effects operative here in 1916. That theory is now used in and is critical to the operation of your GPS. It has taken a long time for people to deal with these ideas that seem to fly in the face of our day to day experience. But when a theory keeps giving us the right answers, over and over again, you got to start asking just how broad is my day to day experience. Really.

Feynman's incredible attempt to explain Quantum Electrodynamics in the Robb memorial lecture series at Auckland is a mind changer, I think. Instead of using wave theory to explain refraction of light, like we all have done since Maxwell, Feynman treats photons as particles that actually follow all paths between points A and B. And he gets the right answer in 90% of all the things that happen in the world around us.

It also does not hurt that Dirac who came up with the basic answer was frequently asked to stop climbing trees on the Cambridge quad.

The world appears, more and more to be probabilistic. In the face of that, the idea of a quantum singularity giving rise to the universe probabilistically does not sound quite so strange.

I do have a question about Guth's inflationary phase that came a few Planck times after the Big Bang. It seems to me there had to be an inflationary epoch if the negative gravitational energy needed to keep total energy at zero (the starting value) consistent with Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. We can violate energy conservation, but only very briefly.

I have never seen that argued. I guess I need to read Guth more assiduously.

And yes Werner is right. I am stupid. We all are stupid. But that's not the question. The question is are we also being willfully ignorant?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 23, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
The question is are we also being willfully ignorant?


That's a valuable question IMO. It also can be answered at many levels per the many facets of our existence. There is the surface, neo-cortex layer of facts and figures that handle data and so forth. This gives us a certain genre of information that is valuable in our lives - to be sure.

Another data stream comes from our limbic system in the form of feelings and emotions. This data stream helps to tell us who we are in the ever shifting process of being alive. Those fused with their thoughts, for example, are going to feel robotic and remote and when pressed about who they are or what's going on they often will respond inappropriately with facts and figures cooked up by the neocortex. It is not that such people are stupid. They simply are ignorant of what is going on in their lives.
To varying degrees, such people are out of touch with moment to moment reality and are often socially awkward and rigid.

Then there are those who have little contact with their instincts, all that primitive brain stem stuff which is the most powerful programming we have. A person not hardwired to their instincts will have little control or their appetites (owned by instincts) or will be totally shut down (disassociated from instincts), a kind of walking zombie, often volatile.

Psychologist often have to work at balancing a person's fusion with one or more of these basic functions. A person ruled by feeling will be like a child; a person ruled by thoughts will have little sense of being present, or BEING a human being; a person ruled by instinct will be an addict or worse. Ignorance of any of these data streams - instincts, feelings, and thoughts, ust to mention three - are sure to cause all kinds of havoc because none of these functions can be buried or disowned or totally sublimated. The energy will always bleed out sideways in untoward ways.

JL
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