Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 9, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
Light dispels darkness. Wisdom dispels ignorance.

Says Duck
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 9, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Ed-

I have a good friend like that. 100% of the time when giving directions, he says the opposite of what he means, even when pointing in the correct direction. He says he was dyslexic when younger.........
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 9, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Examples of Scientific Accuracy in the Bible

I promised this a while ago, but to call out all the best examples would take me forever, so here are some really good links that already do so ...

Some of the examples I would correct scientifically regarding how they discuss them, but they have it mostly correct, but not all.

Some day it would be good to go through all the best examples and write a Talmudic like discussion on each. That would be cool to do, but time consuming.

Suffice it to say The Bible, The Torah, The Tenakh, the OT, and the B'rit Hadasha, the NT, are way ahead of their time for statements that they make that are scientifically correct and brilliantly insightful that are thousands of years ahead and obviously way before modern science came to the same conclusions.

Now I don't subscribe to a literal 6 day creation. A day in Hebrew can mean 12 hours, 24 hours, a week, a year, a thousand years, a million, a billion, or even eternity. It can mean a period of time not specifically elaborated or explained. I take the Dr. Gerald Schroeder point of view in his book, The Science of G-d. We are in agreement with the geologic timelines and the fossil record.



BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 9, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
Klimmer,

I clicked on the top link, then clicked geology. What followed is the worst form of horse sh#t imaginable.

It is just plain wrong. Crazy wrong.

Kindergarten books are more accurate.

I'm not trying to be mean here or to turn you away from your faith, but that writer needs to do a better job.

Here is where they lost me:
We must interpret our physical observations based on the scripture and not interpret the scripture based on our physical observations.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 9, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
Beat me to it - a desperate reaching attempt to make the bible somehow retro-relevant in a world of science. Complete garbage overall.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 9, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
And, he teaches kids science.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 9, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
I edited my post. Go back and check out the quote, which came from here:

http://www.creationmoments.com/content/stretching-out-heavens

We must interpret our physical observations based on the scripture and not interpret the scripture based on our physical observations.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 9, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
Oh yea of little faith.

I already told you I didn't agree with all of it, but to save time I posted the links to start the discussion.

Regardless of how "they" view science, specifically go after examples of scripture quotes that "they" refer to and in which "they" draw out and compare the science truth in regards to today's level of modern science and understanding.

Try and prove the direct statements of scripture wrong. Take the dare.


Examples:

Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning ..."

Wow, we do now know there was a beginning, the point of singularity, The Big Bang.



"Created the Heavens and the Earth ..."

Wow, we now do know the Universe was created (13.7 B yrs ago) , then later our Sol (5 B yrs ago) and the planets accreated along with our Earth (4.56 B yrs ago).



"Stretches the Heavens out like a tent ... (paraphrasing)"

Wow, we now know that indeed the Universe is expanding. Thank you Dr. Hubble.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 9, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
this is my personal favorite:

I wonder how many billions of dollars Explorer 66 cost. Yet someone only had to open the first page of a $10.00 Bible to know the universe had a beginning

that one is just funny, but the one that base picked out is downright disturbing. I can't believe you had the nerve to present that stuff Klimmer. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 12:03am PT
You guys are going after straw-men arguments. Try to prove the Bible wrong, not the people presenting the info.

Even Bozo the Clown can tell the truth sometimes. Doesn't make everything he says a joke.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 12:11am PT
Look at this stuff:


Examples of Scientific Accuracy in the Bible
By David Pyles

When studying the science of the ancient world, one is more apt to be impressed with its ignorance than to admire its accuracy. However, the Bible offers a definite exception to this rule. The scriptures are replete with statements suggesting scientific knowledge which predates the corresponding discoveries of secular science. Given that Bible writers were not scientists, and given that the scientific information at their disposal was generally misleading, the accuracy of the Bible can only be attributed to the inspiration of God. Here are a few of the more striking examples of scientific accuracy in the Bible:

1) The Genesis account of creation asserts that all humans descended from the same parents, Adam and Eve. There is now considerable debate in the scientific community over recent genetic studies which indicate that all men have a common father and all women have a common mother. In fact, the latter claim is sometimes called the Eve hypothesis. Some scientists are skeptical about these studies, and even those who are supportive would not generally accept the Genesis account; however, Bible believers should expect further research to add yet more evidence supporting these hypotheses.

2) Genesis 10:25 speaks of one Peleg whose name means division. The text then explains that he was so named because in his days the earth was divided. It is now commonly believed that all continents of the earth were once combined into a single continent called Pangaea. This belief is based upon the fact that present continents appear somewhat as pieces out of a puzzle. There are also other evidences, including several geological similarities on matching continental edges.

3) The Bible asserts that the stars are innumerable (Gen 15:5, Gen 17:7, Heb 11:12). This does not necessarily mean that we are incapable of mathematically expressing their number. It means that no human has the ability to count them individually so as to achieve their sum. It is claimed that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. If stars were counted around the clock at one star per second, then it would take over 3000 years just to count these. Add to this the fact that there are as many as 100 billion galaxies. However, there were many scholars prior to Galileo who believed that the stars could be counted, and several attempts were made to do so. Many of these counts arrived at around 1000 stars.

4) There is reasonable evidence that the scriptures speak of dinosaurs. As should be expected, this evidence comes from Genesis, the book of origins, and from the book of Job, generally believed to be the oldest book in the Bible.

First, Gn 1:21 speaks of God creating whales on the fifth day of creation. The Hebrew word translated here as whales is generally translated dragons. It is translated as monsters once, whale(s) twice, serpent(s) thrice, and dragon(s) 21 times.

Second, Job's statements concerning the behemoth (Job 40:15-24) might be referring to dinosaurs. Its tail is compared to a cedar tree. Its strength, and apparently its bulk, is in its loins. It is said to be the chief of the ways of God, and is described as having the ability to drink up a river. No modern animal meets this description in all points.

Third, Job's description of the leviathin (Job 41) very much resembles a dinosaur. Some would dismiss this description as fictitious because the leviathin is described as breathing fire; however, some creation scientists believe this could have happened. The creature would merely need glands to produce a chemical which would combust when exposed to air. The bombardier beetle does in fact have this ability. The fact that nearly every major culture of the world has traditions about such dragons lends yet further credibility to the possibility of their existence in the past.


etc etc....

this is the worst possible examples of obtuse, circular, wildly speculative reasoning imaginable.
You should be ashamed. Do you really teach this to kids? I'm serious - do you?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 12:17am PT
Bruce,

Do you have a memory problem? Separation of Church and State.


Pull-out specific quotes of scripture that you have a problem with.


I already told you all I don't agree with how they presented it all, but to save time I posted the links to start the discussion.




Once again...


Try and prove the direct statements of scripture wrong. Take the dare.


Examples:

Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning ..."

Wow, we do now know there was a beginning, the point of singularity, The Big Bang.



"Created the Heavens and the Earth ..."

Wow, we now do know the Universe was created (13.7 B yrs ago) , then later our Sol (5 B yrs ago) and the planets accreated along with our Earth (4.56 B yrs ago).



"Stretches the Heavens out like a tent ... (paraphrasing)"

Wow, we now know that indeed the Universe is expanding. Thank you Dr. Hubble.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 10, 2013 - 12:28am PT
I'm reminded of an old Quaker saying from the days of that religion's foundation, "Do not of the Bible a paper Pope make".

The problem is not whether some Bible phrase is vague enough to be contorted into a particular interpretation, the problem is why some people feel the need to have one book explain everything.

No less than Martin Luther thought that if everyone could read the Bible for themselves, we'd all agree on what truth was and that obviously didn't happen. So why, 500 years later are people still trying?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 12:38am PT
do you or do you not teach that stuff to kids in school?

Get a grip man. Of course i cant' disprove most of that mumbo jumbo - I can hardly figure out what they are referencing and neither can you. What the fuk is a Leviathan? A large camel? A Brontosaurus? Pathways in the sea? that could be interpreted so many different ways your head would spin. All of it is vague to the point of obscurity and speculative to the point of hilarity!
Of course I can't prove anything! Who hell could? Nor can I prove that dragons never hoarded gold and treasure. You could probably open up a Dr Suess green eggs and ham and ask to determine various laws of physics.

Hell I'm ashamed of you. Are you sure you're a climber?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 12:51am PT
Bruce you sure have a lot of shame. Lol. What do you do when no ones Looking? (Rhetorical question don't answer).

Seriously, do you not understand the answer "separation of church and state."

I'm sorry you're not up to the challenge and can't make sense of it all.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 12:58am PT
well I'm glad you can laugh at it Klimmer. How about that ARk on the moon theory - or was that just a notion?

so do you or do you not teach that stuff to kids in school? I asked you first.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:23am PT
Don't mix arguements. Why bring the massive mother ship on the Moon into this? Many NASA images verify the presence and NASA moon-walkers verify there are spacecraft on the far side of the Moon. Mitchell is one.

I abide by separation of church and state like I already have answered several times now.

It's like I'm talking to a massive wall.

And yes I climb, ski, paraglide, scuba, free dive, mountain bike, carve board but that shouldn't matter.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 08:17am PT
oh klimmer for crying out loud. JStan is clearly far more right than I ever realized. Sure we both speak English but somewhere along the line the translation is lost. Look, I have no doubt you actually climb and I don't fault you for that. So do I and I'm afraid that associating we have explains my shame in your attitude and most certainly if you actually teach this hybrid / hydra headed monster of ignorance to young impressionable minds. Do you also explain to them that they must be certain?

Yes it is true I am capable of shame when I do something sinful or even if someone I am somehow associated with does something sinful. How about you? Have you no shame?

Now what are you driving at it terms of separation of church and state? I believe education is a function of a secular state and if it isn't you are living proof that it bloody well should be.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2013 - 08:33am PT
I thank Klimmer for posting his beliefs here on ST
They provide a look into the many ways that humans can sort out reality that provides them with frame work of how the universe works.

I used to have some similar beliefs, but I was a New Ager Science/God/Spirits/fields/karma/reincarnation/zen/aliens type with an overall disdain for the bible and all associated with it.

My old beliefs were that God guided the creation and evolution.

Now I reject those old believes.

I put my beliefs to some rigours tests about 15 years ago, and the old beliefs failed every one of them.

Now, all my beliefs can pass any test that I can think of.

Testing beliefs, interesting topic, I'm sure there are some I haven't tried, and many I would reject as valid, like "We really don't know anything, it's all a dream like Matrix"

MH2

climber
Feb 10, 2013 - 08:49am PT
Is Klimmer left brain or right brain?
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