Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 12541 - 12560 of total 23145 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
Seriously? Those pesky master manipulators. They're just so damn busy up there in the office of social disinformation that no one would ever work for them if it weren't for all the perks. Of course it's somewhat better these days what with all the automation.

I wasn't specifically referencing your job title. You have plenty of competition from many directions, mostly well intentioned...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 19, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
I wasn't specifically referencing your job title.

Which title is that? I wasn't referencing yours either...

Yes, that is the basic insanity of our society that provides justification for us to destroy everything we don't myopically understand, love, or appreciate.

I'd say that - and 'social disinformation' - is largely over-thinking it. It's a simple matter of consumption and no different or more elaborate than swabbing a sterile culture medium in a petri dish with a bacterial strain - the results are eminently predictable.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
Credit: TomCochrane
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
Tom
Thanks for the critique
Of course I say you are wrong in your impressions of me
I guess you missed my history, and when I was Dr. Guru F.
and would have agreed with 100%,
that was the 70s through the 90s

I evolved, and now have a solid relationship with Reality
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
Of course I say you are wrong in your impressions of me
I guess you missed my history, and when I was Dr. Guru F.
and would have agreed with 100%,
that was the 70s through the 90s

I evolved, and now have a solid relationship with Reality

Well, admittedly a bunch of text and pictures on a screen is sort of a Plato's cave for trying to understand someone. I did catch your Dr. Guru history. I am no guru, but I don't think having a 'solid relationship with Reality' is necessarily anything to be proud about in this barbaric society. I am all too familiar with that 'solid Reality', enough to know that we have much to learn and not so much to be proud about.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 19, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 19, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
Holy cow this is embarrassing. I mean, even just being on the same continent as Oklahoma is getting pretty embarrassing. You guys down under the 49th parallel must be just squirming with embarrassment huh? Why does Oklahoma let their pet dinosaurs set science curriculum anyway?


Insist That People Coexisted With Dinosaurs…and Get an A in Science Class!
—By Dana Liebelson| Tue Feb. 19, 2013 3:02 AM PST

In biology class, public school students can't generally argue that dinosaurs and people ran around Earth at the same time, at least not without risking a big fat F. But that could soon change for kids in Oklahoma: On Tuesday, the Oklahoma Common Education committee is expected to consider a House bill that would forbid teachers from penalizing students who turn in papers attempting to debunk almost universally accepted scientific theories such as biological evolution and anthropogenic (human-driven) climate change.

Gus Blackwell, the Republican state representative who introduced the bill, insists that his legislation has nothing to do with religion; it simply encourages scientific exploration. "I proposed this bill because there are teachers and students who may be afraid of going against what they see in their textbooks," says Blackwell, who previously spent 20 years working for the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma. "A student has the freedom to write a paper that points out that highly complex life may not be explained by chance mutations."

These bills are "a kind of code for people who are opposed to teaching climate change and evolution."
Stated another way, students could make untestable, faith-based claims in science classes without fear of receiving a poor mark.

HB 1674 is the latest in an ongoing series of "academic freedom" bills aimed at watering down the teaching of science on highly charged topics. Instead of requiring that teachers and textbooks include creationism—see the bill proposed by Missouri state Rep. Rick Brattin—HB 1674's crafters say it merely encourages teachers and students to question, as the bill puts it, the "scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses" of topics that "cause controversy," including "biological evolution, the chemical origins of life, global warming, and human cloning."

Eric Meikle, education project director at the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) in Oakland, California, says Oklahoma has proposed more anti-evolution legislation than any other state, introducing eight bills with academic freedom language since 2004. (None has passed.) "The problem with these bills is that they're so open-ended; it's a kind of code for people who are opposed to teaching climate change and evolution," Meikle says.

HB 1674 goes further than a companion bill under consideration in the state Senate by explicitly protecting students, teachers, and schools from being penalized for subscribing to alternative theories. It does, however, say that children may still be tested on widely accepted theories such as anthropogenic climate change. "Students can't say because I don't believe in this, I don't want to learn it," Blackwell says. "They have to learn it in order to look at the weaknesses."

"An extremely high percentage of scientists will tell you that evolution doesn't have scientific weaknesses," says the NCSE's Meikle. "If every teacher, parent, and school board can decide what to teach on their own, you're going to have chaos. You can't deluge kids with every theory that's ever been considered since the beginning of time."

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
Is your red the same as my red?

i think his line of reasoning is very interesting, but strays into hubris with his conclusions

My Red:

Credit: TomCochrane


So just what ARE you thinking!?

[(3!)!]! > [(3 * 2)!]! > [6 * 5 * 4 * 3 * 2]! ==> 720! 720 * 719 * 718 * ... * 3 * 2 * 1 720 / 5 = 144 factors of 5 720 / 25 = 28 factors of 25 720 / 125 = 5 ...
Credit: TomCochrane
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
For thousands of years spiritual teachers have been talking about the realm of the spirit. How silly when any physicist can tell you it's really just the Higgs Field.

What a thought!

http://news.yahoo.com/higgs-boson-particle-may-spell-doom-universe-152236961.html


BOSTON — A subatomic particle discovered last year that may be the long-sought Higgs boson might doom our universe to an unfortunate end, researchers say.

The mass of the particle, which was uncovered at the world's largest particle accelerator — the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) in Geneva — is a key ingredient in a calculation that portends the future of space and time.

"This calculation tells you that many tens of billions of years from now there'll be a catastrophe," Joseph Lykken, a theoretical physicist at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Ill., said Monday (Feb. 18) here at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

"It may be the universe we live in is inherently unstable, and at some point billions of years from now it's all going to get wiped out," added Lykken, a collaborator on one of the LHC's experiments. [Gallery: Search for the Higgs Boson]

The Higgs boson particle is a manifestation of an energy field pervading the universe called the Higgs field, which is thought to explain why particles have mass. After searching for decades for proof that this field and particle existed, physicists at the LHC announced in July 2012 that they'd discovered a new particle whose properties strongly suggest it is the Higgs boson.

To confirm the particle's identity for sure, more data are needed. But many scientists say they're betting it's the Higgs.

"This discovery to me was personally astounding," said I. Joseph Kroll, a University of Pennsylvania physicist who also works at the LHC. "To me, the Higgs was sort of, it might be there, it might not. The fact that it's there is really a tremendous accomplishment."

And finding the Higgs, if it's truly been found, not only confirms the theory about how particles get mass, but it allows scientists to make new calculations that weren't possible before the particle's properties were known.

For example, the mass of the new particle is about 126 billion electron volts, or about 126 times the mass of the proton. If that particle really is the Higgs, its mass turns out to be just about what's needed to make the universe fundamentally unstable, in a way that would cause it to end catastrophically in the far future.

That's because the Higgs field is thought to be everywhere, so it affects the vacuum of empty space-time in the universe.

"The mass of the Higgs is related to how stable the vacuum is," explained Christopher Hill, a theoretical physicist at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory. "It's right along the critical line. That could either be a cosmic coincidence, or it could be that there's some physics that's causing that. That's something new, which we didn't know before."

Strikingly, if the Higgs mass were just a few percent different, the universe wouldn't be doomed, the scientists said.

But even if the universe is in for an unfortunate end, there is at least one reason for consolation.

"You won't actually see it, because it will come at you at the speed of light," Lykken said. "So in that sense don't worry."

Sea Pens and Blue Cod
Sea Pens and Blue Cod
Credit: TomCochrane
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 19, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
Well, one of my 'titles' was filming and sound recording Humpback Whales for URI while working on establishing of the Hawaiian Islands Humpback Whale National Marine Sanctuary. I will proudly admit to being a disinformation specialist as part of my role in helping to get it established.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 19, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
Well, one of my 'titles' was filming and sound recording Humpback Whales for URI while working on establishing of the Hawaiian Islands Humpback Whale National Marine Sanctuary.


very interesting!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 19, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
While there I took it on my own to go out and do song recordings at midnight during all four phases of the moon to determine if a) they sang different phrasing at night, b) different phrasing at different moon phases, but mostly c) to see if countering the gravitation of the moon relative to maintaining neutral buoyancy could be detected in their songs. Would loved to have had the technology at the time to compare all of the above with accurate depth data. Unfortunately the computer power just wasn't available at the time do do any of the requisite analysis, let alone at the resolution required to make any real judgment around the proposition. That, along with wanting to automate animation stands and large-scale greenhouse operations, was why I got into computers.
MH2

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
tucked down at the bottom of the page to be out of the way

FINALLY!

I no longer need to rain down curses on or poke pins into the misshapen wax doll of the West Vancouver Library cardholder who I feared had stolen the book I had been coveting since 10th October of last year. That was when I walked into the library and tapped out 'Roger Penrose' on the keyboard of the sleek modern terminal running an archaic database that is confounded by first names. Thank God the eminent physicist was not surnamed 'Smith.'

I learned that the book I wanted was due that very day. Perhaps it had come in but not been catalogued? I checked with one of the humans still employed by the municipality to look quietly busy and helpful behind the front desk and was assured that as the book slid down the return slot at the library entrance a ray of some kind would leap from the machine to the book or vice versa and the file for the book in the library database would instantly switch from DUE to AVAILABLE. This kept me happily checking and re-checking the database until I remembered I had better things to do.

I continued to query the library database for the overdue Penrose book. Every two or three weeks I looked up the entry and found it stuck at DUE DUE DUE. I hoped the library had an intimidating robot they could send round to the address of the miscreant.

About a month ago I found the entry changed to BILLED. The only further recourse i could think of was black magic.

Whether it was the pins or the curses or maybe the truant's cat that leapt up onto the folding lap-table in front of the computer where it's owner had placed the book to prop his arthritic elbows when Googling for how to kill aphids, toppling the table and bringing the book and yesterday's tea-leavings down with a crash, somehow the book returned to the library.

Now I have the book.






The first 7,000 pages or so are about math.







Among the usual blah blah blurbs on the jacket:


Praise for Roger Penrose

'Not bad for a human'
GOD




TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:04am PT

Global Warming will Wipe Out Plankton from Oceans

Credit: TomCochrane



Plankton is the most prevalent life and food source in the ocean. Phytoplankton, which carries on photosynthesis near the ocean surface, serves as food for the zooplankton and fish.
The microscopic plants that underpin all life in the oceans are likely to be destroyed by global warming. Scientists have discovered a way that the vital plankton of the oceans can be starved of nutrients as a result of the seas getting warmer. They believe the findings have catastrophic implications for the entire marine habitat, which ultimately relies on plankton at the base of the food chain.

Plankton are microscopic animals (zooplankton) and algae (phytoplankton) that live in the ocean. They drift on currents and provide food for many ocean residents.

“A larger temperature difference between two water layers implies less mixing of chemicals between these water layers,” he said. “Global warming of the surface layers of the oceans, owing to climate change, strengthens the stratification and thereby reduces the upward mixing of nutrients.”

Scientists had believed phytoplankton, which survives best at depths of about 100 metres, is largely stable and immune from the impact of global warming. “This model prediction was rather unexpected,” Professor Huisman said.

“Reduced stability of the plankton, caused by global warming of the oceans, may result in a decline of oceanic production and reduced sequestration of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide into the oceans.”

Phytoplankton therefore acts as a carbon “sink” which takes carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and deposits the carbon in long-term stores that can remain undisturbed for thousands of years. If the growth of phytoplankton is interrupted by global warming, this ability to act as a buffer against global warming is also affected – leading to a much-feared positive feedback.

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane



http://artsonearth.com/2010/03/global-warming-will-wipe-out-plankton-from-oceans.html
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:55am PT
Largo - Good Question!
1) Spirit

2) Spiritual

3) Spiritual Universe


My persepective:

1. Spirit = "I" yep. That's all.

2. Spiritual = You and I and that quality that dead bodies don't have as Mr Cochrane pointed out so well with the photos.

3. Spiritual Universe - Where we go when we're not here knocking meat and bone against wood and stone. (Some folks talk about a "home universe" where we lived before we created reality together. I recently discovered that it's not some time in the distant past but here now! I'm still stoked about this.)



BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:29am PT

Feb 19, 2013 - 03:53pm PT

. . . since we get quizzed so much on the material universe, this isn't a discussion until somebody explains the following:

1) Spirit

2) Spiritual

3) Spiritual Universe


------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm thinking you're think that "explaining" 1-3 is an exercise much like explaining the physical universe, where words relate to quantafible people, places or things, in other words, to stuff we can know and to some extent, make clear (make "it" assume some recognizable or tangible form).

Is that what you're wanting for an answer? 1, a spirit, is this and that, with these properties, et al.

JL

I really need you to define this in some way. You are good with words, so it should't be too difficult.

It is easy to grasp a rock. I don't know where to go to observe spirit in any real sense.

So. Lead the way and help us out. There is a big disconnect between us right now. I'm perfectly willing to listen to anything you want to say.
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:30am PT
I don't know where to go to observe spirit in any real sense.

Study yourself .....
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:34am PT
As for Oklahoma, we used to be a pretty cool state, but in the last few years the Republicans have taken all houses of government and are now doing whatever they want.

On the upside, Sharia Law is banned. We can also carry loaded guns around without a permit as long as they are in the open.

They are also dismantling the state agencies and installing a good old boy system that it took us decades to get rid of.

OKC is home to many of the largest domestic oil and gas exploration companies, and is full of science. We are all shaking our heads in disgust at what is now going on. If you want to relocate, Oklahoma is OK other than the stifling heat. The people are nice and there is enough climbing to keep you going.

Just don't come if you have kids. You don't want them to grow up here.

I can't believe that I am saying this, but yes, the Governor and Legislature is batshit crazy uber right Limbaugh drones, and they can do whatever they want now.

Use Oklahoma as an example of what happens when the no-science party takes complete control.
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:39am PT
a popular interpretation of this commonality is that the spiritual domain is some universe place outside of the individual that is taped in to by the individual

That's not popular and completely false.

You're still trying to completely and ultimately "guess" the whole thing.

There's absolutely no doubt you are doing that .......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
Ed, respectfully, do you have some specific comments in response to my struggles to understand what is happening at the molecular and sub-atomic particle level?

i.e. sub-atomic particles are 'thoughts' postulated by 'creative spiritual energy' and molecular persistence is created by encrypted motion patterns at the electron shell level...which we don't have the physical instruments to see...

i realize these would probably be considered pseudo-science unworthy of your attention...but can you tell me why and what is wrong with this line of reasoning from a scientific perspective?

i would really honor your response, because i have been thinking about how to understand this for a long time...

(and because i will claim to have seen it...)
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