Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 12, 2013 - 10:57pm PT

You run out of cactus so your moving on to pineapple?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 12, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
quit bumping my important sh#t(not) off and onto a new page with those big ass cactis pics

my god, how many of them do we have to see anyway

should I post motorcycle pics to show how much I value science and beauty?

yeah, ok, its your thread, I get it
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 12, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Second, for those who have been in the recovery movement for a long time, they will usually put the recovery rate of all addicts (sex, substances, gambling, rage, over thinking, obsessions, etc.) and alcoholics at around 5% regardless of the program.

You just measured it.

edit: How did you measure it? Somebody got curious about the topic of addiction and put a lot of effort and work into understanding and treating it, you little twit. So they find ways to try to measure it. If you are curious, you are a scientist.

I have no idea how many people study addiction, but it is a lot. A LOT. I assume that you have also read a lot of it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 13, 2013 - 12:36am PT
I have read every post of yours on this thread and I still don't know just exactly what is the spirituality you refer to, that you claim, infer, that you yourself are knowledgable of and have experienced.


What I think you are asking for is information that would give you some mental picture or evaluation of a religious experience that you could understand and be able to evaluate as correct or not, or that would give you some cognitive notion of some damn thing.

Let me try another angle to provide a very tangible direct experience about how powerful this stuff can be in the real world.

As many of you know, I recently took a 25 foot fall directly onto my feet and when I rolled up I saw my leg bones jutting from a fist-sized hole in my shin, maybe five inches about my ankle. I immediately knew the whole thing was out of my hands and that I couldn't control anything but my reaction. So I simply went into a being energy, watched my breathing and brought myself down to zero. The injury was so awful that people around me were throwing up and passing out. I pretty much stayed in that energy for the next 30 days and through five surgeries. I can honestly say that with one brief lapse I was never scared.

People who witnessed this said that I was a real man and a stud for not panicking. Or that I used some fancy Zen detachment exercise or relaxation gig and it really worked - but in fact this is to totally miss what happened.

I am no more courageous or manly than anyone on this thread and I never have been. That's a plain fact. I just know from a lot of years of experience that there is a timeless, unborn "being" energy that we can all access and it has nothing to do with beliefs, relaxation, or states. It is the Pure Land equally in this world and it is beyond it. It is every bit as real as a compound fracture. And I know that from direct experience.

Can I quantify or measure what this is, so you too can know it simply by way of a description. Not a chance. I just use this example to underscore the fact that while there certainly are profound insights to a spiritual practice, there is also a HUGE physical/material component and unless you can manifest the practice in the most traumatic times your practice is nothing more than a bunch of ideas and theories and data meaning jack sh#t in the real world.

JL

Rehabing, one-foot/leg rowing will burn you to ashes.
Rehabing, one-foot/leg rowing will burn you to ashes.
Credit: Largo
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 12:51am PT
Largo:
Despite the fact that your injured leg is not getting as much of a workout , have you noticed the muscle tone is probably greater than it would be otherwise, or that the general muscle tone is improving?
Pro body builders and rehab people have noticed for years that even when an injured limb is not intensely worked there is nonetheless a metabolic and anabolic spillover effect provided the uninjured limb is worked intensely.
MH2

climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 01:35am PT
JL speaks well for himself but that doesn't keep others of us from chipping in.

A lot has been written on philosophy since Plato and his dialogues, but Plato's main subject Socrates did not write things down. A present-day author says that Socrates treated ideas as organic things that could grow in a person's mind, but which would wither and die if planted in the sterile desert of words. Socrates' method was to ask other people questions, to not present himself as an authority, and to help other people discover answers starting from what they already knew.

JL doesn't operate along Socratic lines, the audience here doesn't seem motivated to learn that way, and the written word may not be sufficient. However, if you went and talked to JL so that you could pick up his non-verbal language and he yours, I bet you would have a much better sense of what he is trying to get at.

(Norton)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 01:54am PT
Socrates' method was to ask other people questions, to not present himself as an authority, and to help other people discover answers starting from what they already knew.

Are you suggesting here that the Socratic method retains an underlying formative influence in current status quo ways of thinking?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 13, 2013 - 02:33am PT
Damn! Thats the biggest yo yo I've ever seen.

I mean, thats what I see. Thats what everyone else sees......... right?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:31am PT
Ed, you weren't paying attention to my sample size. I'm not defending 86% of the world, I'm defending religious moderation on this thread. Anthropologists always work in small groups. If you want numbers and stats, call a sociologist. They're more likely to agree with the secular folks anyway.

:)
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 11:50am PT
I will still defend the material scientific progress.

I always have although due to misunderstand it did not "look" like that.

But that was never true.

Our material body still needs the physical science.

The the East and West, they should cooperate.

For the East, there cannot be a different physical science.

The same science can be taught in the East and the West.

Thus any scientific knowledge, it does not depend on East and West ......
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Mar 13, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
I'm embarassed as well...

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Socrates' method was to ask other people questions, to not present himself as an authority, and to help other people discover answers starting from what they already knew.


Not so sure this definition stands up to a close reading on Socrates. The rap against him when I was studying philosophy was that he wasn't asking honest questions, rather questions that he believed he knew the correct answer to in order to corner a person in their falsely reasoned position. And in the process, Socrates provided little to no firm ground for people to stand on with a raft of equivocal "answers."

Listening to Socrates in, say, the Phaedo, however, Socrates asserts that the soul is immortal, and the philosopher should spend his life training it to detach itself from the needs of the body. then comes the Argument from Opposites. Everything, he says, comes to be from out of its opposite.
Death is the opposite of life, and so living things come to be out of dead things and vice versa. This implies that there is a perpetual cycle of life and death, cha cha cha.

Next comes the Theory of Recollection. This theory suggests that all learning is a matter of recollecting what we already know. We forget much of our knowledge at birth, and can be made to recollect this knowledge through proper questioning. That we had such knowledge at birth, and could forget it, suggests that our soul existed before we were born.

The third is the Argument from Affinity. Socrates draws a distinction between those things that are immaterial, invisible, and immortal, and those things which are material, visible, and perishable. The body is of the second kind, whereas the soul is of the first kind.


Lastly, Socrates lays out his fourth argument, positing the unchanging and invisible Forms as the causes of all things in this world. All things possess what qualities they have only through participation in these Forms.
Clearly this became Plato's "forms."

We might not be following the Socratic method here but you can see we are covering much the same ground.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
We might not be following the Socratic method here but you can see we are covering much the same ground.

This might be a minor point but that comment offers a good entree into what has become known as the "Socratic Problem":

The Socratic problem is a rat's nest of complexities arising from the fact that various people wrote about Socrates whose accounts differ in crucial respects, leaving us to wonder which, if any, are accurate representations of the historical Socrates. “There is, and always will be, a ‘Socratic problem’. This is inevitable,” said Guthrie (1969, 6), looking back on a gnarled history between ancient and contemporary times that is narrated in detail by Press (1996), but barely touched on below. The difficulties are increased because all those who knew and wrote about Socrates lived before any standardization of modern categories of, or sensibilities about, what constitutes historical accuracy or poetic license.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/socrates/

Socrates ,or his method, may simply be analogous to a McCluhanesque image, that is, the philosophical/historical version of the portion of Homer Simpsons brain labeled "your ad here "
Credit: Ward Trotter

(By "McCluhanesque" I am referring to the point that McCluhan always made about the visual iconic image: it is low -definition , like a television image, or an impressionist painting- it invites the eye of the viewer to 'participate ' in order fill -in,or complete the image.
Socrates, or his method, i like to think of as a sort of 2000year old Rorscharch test)



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
John Long,

first, thank you for even finding my post questions to you on a previous page bumped by a big ass cacti picture, but also for responding to it above

I "get" that you summoned a personal strength to deal with your injury as described in apparently an unusually stoic manner

however, I don't see how this relates to the learned, studied, spiritualism you speak about

your personal example shows you to have a strong mind, but do not many other people have strong minds and can react as you did but without the formal structure spiritual "training" you have gone through in your studies?

or are you saying that it was only from your training that you were capable of reacting as you did, and that others like me with no formal training, cannot?
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
Socrates strongly opposed the Sophists of the day back then.

They were everywhere and vocal with their fertile brains run amok.

They based their opinion of right and wrong and of truth and falsity were completely relative.

Socrates on the other hand asserted that there is an absolute, universal truth or good,
beyond mere speculation and opinion, that could be known clearly and with certainty.

Oh oh ...... :-)

He was a super smart guy, very advanced and laid waste to their silly projections and mental speculations with sound logic and reason.

He destroyed them although the sophists stubbornly held on to their stupid nonsense even after they were defeated ......
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Mar 13, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
The Buddha said:

Life is a journey.
Death is a return to earth.
The universe is like an inn.
The passing years are like dust.
Regard this phantom world
As a star at dawn, a bubble in a stream,
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp - a phantom - and a dream.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 13, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
your personal example shows you to have a strong mind, but do not many other people have strong minds and can react as you did but without the formal structure spiritual "training" you have gone through in your studies?

Not "studies," but practice. Studying is what we do in school. I never studied Zen except for reading a few sutras and reading Moon in a Dew Drop 1,000 times. And my reaction had nothing to do with "mind' as you are using it, meaning that some kind of spiritual ju ju mind control was summoned. No. I simply traversed into being energy and that did for me what I (ego mental John) cannot do for myself. The distinction is crucial, lest you think I am suggesting some mental stunt here, and I'm not. This is not a matter of "how to use your mind." It's no-mind in practice, where the rubber meets the road.


or are you saying that it was only from your training that you were capable of reacting as you did, and that others like me with no formal training, cannot?



I could react like that because I spent time cultivating my presence in that place. I cannot speak for others, or how they might respond when bones are showing. It is not an easy position to deal with.

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
This is not my thread, it is the property of SuperTopo
They just let me post here
Credit: Dr. F.
and what a ko wink-e-dink
I get to post at the top of the page
If there is Karma, (which I do not beleive in) it has had a queer way of making me check in at same time this thread comes up to the top of the page.
So what else am I going do, Bump it with a cacti pic
Yea

please, carry on

Ed
I will say that cactus is a Pediocactus simpsonii
if it's a native species, if not, I will try again
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
ok John, thank you for your answers

I feel that I now better understand the mental state you are able to put yourself into

it seems to me that you are using or converting your own energy in time of crisis to in effect divert it to your mind to "cope"

and I assume it follows that this same energy tapping into can be used for things other than physical crisis, like meditating and .....
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