Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 4, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
It appears that scientists are more interested in "weak" emergence, and have their doubts about "strong" emergence which would I suppose appeal to JL and his colleagues

Bears repeating, although at this stage it's pretty obvious.


;>)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 4, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
JL, That's the best one yet!!!

That ping-pong match resonates back to the Big Bang/ Creationism debate. Maybe the "BigBang" theory is right in that it could have been a loud noise that first started all matter to move?

Jus Listen'in
BB
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 4, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
The big bang theory seems like bullsh#t. The real orgin of it is that people need to have a scientific substitute for genesis. Its too easy to say that the universe always was like this and there was no beginning. But how could there be a beginning, it makes no sense. Only with this asinine theory.

What's the evidence for the big bang theory? The only real evidence are frequency shifts towards longer wavelengths for more distant stars. This is attributed to the doppler effect, which I admit is the most obvious explanation, but its not necessarily the only one. I would challenge that before I accepted a theory that ends up with really absurd conclusions. The universe started as a singular point that contained everything then exploded and all matter was created, etc. Oh really? What other evidence is there for the big bang? These guys with a radio telescope can't explain the background noise any other way. It must be leftover sound from the big bang. The big bang theory was a huge setback for science, but it will be disproven eventually.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
that is, if you must insist that experience is in and of itself a physical thing,

No one claimed this

It's a expression of energy and matter, and it may possible that it can't be reverse engineered.
It all disappears the second after it happened
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 4, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
And round and round we go...

I am wondering how the argument that consciousness, reality, etc., are all part of some spiritual existence are any different? Those arguments go round and round equal to the way the physical arguments go round and round. The only difference is that the spiritualists promote their agenda by saying that something is because it is while the martialists promote their agenda by arguing that something cannot be just because you say so.

We take what we know and we don't make up sh#t to add to it just to fill in the blanks.

So to somehow insult the arguments on one side by saying they go round and round without seeing the "round and round"-ness of the other side is a bit close minded for someone so spiritual.

Open your mind to the possibility that the body and stuff in it might be all that you are.

Dave

WBraun

climber
Mar 4, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Open your mind to the possibility that the body and stuff in it might not be all that you are.

Actually it is a bonafide fact we are not the body ......
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Total fail on the flower color
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
My wife calls this plant "Dolly Parton"
I call it the "double headed bird's nest show plant"
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 4, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
anyone know what these are?
anyone know what these are?
Credit: Dr. F.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 5, 2013 - 03:26am PT
How the Brain Loses and Regains Consciousness: Brain Patterns Produced by General Anesthesia Revealed

Which takes us back to the Grandin question of "but where do they go?". Well, punk, where do they?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 5, 2013 - 09:03am PT
There's an interesting article on the behind the scenes, human interest aspects of the search for the Higgs boson on the front page of the New York Times for March 5. Beautiful photos of the equipment involved also.
WBraun

climber
Mar 5, 2013 - 10:43am PT
When you apply anesthesia you disable the the brain.

The soul now does not feel pain anymore due to being separated from the identification of the body.

A crude layman example you disable the car computer and it will still run but but barely as there is no feedback from all the sensors.

Limp home mode.

In more modern vehicle computers it will not run at all but you the driver is still operating but can not use the vehicle except to sit in it and go nowhere with the car.

But of course the modern materialists completely reject this due to their stubbornness even though they can observe this.

They are continually stuck that we are the body.

Modern man is not simple. modern man is over complicated mess with all their machines and data.

Their cups are filled and running over the top and can't understand the basic root simple facts and observance anymore.

They start with machines and more machines and their heads filled to over following.

Modern materialistic man is a mess that's run amok over thinking, speculating, theorizing.

Instead of calling the manufacturer of the machine they start guessing how it works.

There's always a certain class of men who reject the manufacturer of the machine because we're professionals, "we don't need no stinkin manual".

The intelligent class take to the manufacturer of the machine to understand how it functions and works ......



BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 5, 2013 - 11:16am PT
Their cups are filled and running over the top and can't understand the basic root simple facts and observance anymore.

The Cup is Full analogy is one that I've been wanting to post here for a long time. Some people simply will not learn and think they know everything. Their cup is full.

Go look at the pre-human intelligence of the political thread. Talk about cup is full....
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 5, 2013 - 11:42am PT


Well I'd say thats about the most text I've ever seen you produce. I think you should just take a chill pill and still your mind a bit tho Werner. All you really had to say was this to sum up the net effect of Politics, God, Religion and science:

There's always a certain class of men
MH2

climber
Mar 5, 2013 - 11:47am PT
The intelligent class take to the manufacturer of the machine to understand how it functions and works ......


That's why I didn't leave home for a good year and a half after birth.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 5, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
I have never said that ONLY the experiential is real. This is simply flip-flopping the materialists claim that only the material is real. The circular trap of this argument is that by their own definition, "real" and "material" are the same thing. So there's quite naturally no place to expand or to grow with this view. Just as Ed said about solipism, you end up in the same place if you artificially collapse the objective and subjective into one unwieldly wad. If real and matter are defined as the same thing, there is no refuting materialism, a notion that some have pushed so far as to say that experience (qualia) is not, in fact real, that it does not actually exist - talk about a blind spot.

The wonky thing is that this and every other view ever maintained is known only through experiencing the thought, but notice how the rational mind will immediately go back to considering the thought as an "expression of mind and energy."

It seems dead obvious to anyone who has studied the experiential directly that the rational mind has no ability to wrangle the experiential, even though the "rational mind" as we know it exists ONLY as an experience. Unless you insist that objective brain functioning IS mind - entirely.

so the default is to consider the experiential as solely an extension of the physical, that is, if you can control the physical, you can control and predict the output of the experiential. I remember studying clinical psych in grad school and discovering that psychiatry is almost entirely based on the psychological being entirely bio output. Till you run into raving borderlines and narcissists, which seemingly have no simple or uniform physical footprint but see where it gets you to say "it's only in their mind." As though there is some human rality that is NOT in your mind.

Now I'm not saying that only the mind is real, only that our experience is our fundamental reality, the one that we consciously live with, so if yo have to default back to saying the subjective is merely a product of the objective, at least have the wherewithal to understand that your Aunt in not exactly your Uncle. In reality, Mind and Matter create a perfect feedback loop, each informing the other all day long. You think about Roxanne and draw sudden wood. I get an involuntary impuse and have to eat. Yada yada.

Interestingly, Craig mentioned that mind might not be revere engineerable. I think he better reconsider because a ground up model of reality cannot brook a missing link in the progresion, where one thing becomes something else without a previous factor, cause or impetus. If you get to a certain place where there is a total disconnect between the flow, how was the bridge crossed? Or is it that if we had the right data all would be clear - according to this belief?

JL
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 5, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
The objective is what's real. Go ahead and smash your head against the wall if you need a demonstration. Doesnt matter what your opinion is of the wall or what my perspective is on it, it's going to hurt just the same. So my subjective experience of the same wall is different than yours because both are approximations with no real existence. Look around the room, see all the details? If you leave the room and I ask you about them, you won't know most of them. That's because your brain didn't take a picture of it, just recorded some information that seemed useful at the time. So there is no recording of reality inside your brain, not really a subjective recording either. The internal modeling tricks us, it looks so real. Sort of like people who live vicariously by watching TV shows like "Dancing With the Stars" or read the grocery store mags about Oprah.

Now here is the problem with what JL says about qualia. My brain has some concept for the color red, when I see it, the symbol is invoked, I think red and it looks red to me. Your brain has recorded this concept in some other way, and I have no idea what red looks like to you. It's just a symbol with no actual connection to reality. But we see a painting with shades of red and blue that match pretty well, we both think it looks cool. What does this mean, that our arbitrary, subjective systems for explaining red both agree its a match. So the subjective part and the modeling also corresponds to the objective in some real way.

We live in a world of imperfect replicas, in our own worlds, really, but they all approximate the real one. None of this helps me understand consciousness though. Because that imperfect recording of the world, the model I made of it in my head and constantly change, is really all I am. What else am I except the experiences recorded by my brain?

Analogy: 5 blind men are touching an elephant. This one grabs a leg, an elephant is like a tree. Next one grabs the trunk, an elephant is like a ... you get the picture. Aren't all our experiences like that? Isn't this the moral of the blind men and the elephant story?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 5, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
Investigating the thing that is doing the investigating. Tricky business, there. Like a Klein bottle.


;>\


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