Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 5, 2013 - 09:27am PT
Largo wrote,
"Programs for Living" and all the rest make no sense in a strictly determined world.

1. What a lovely phrase: "Programs for Living" (cf: bibles, strategies for living, blueprints for living, Life Manuals or Manuals for Living)

2. Interesting that you would think that a mechanistic world** would mean "Programs for Living" (development thereof or use) would make no sense (and thus presumably have no value).

3. In a strictly mechanistic world, would "Programs for Learning How to Rock Climb" make no sense? Would "Education and Training Programs in Self-Defense" make no sense? Would "Programs in the Art of Teaching" make no sense?

4. Can you extrapolate? Can you NOT extrapolate? If not, please explain. Thanks.

5. Last but not least, can you IMAGINE (right brain, here!) "Programs for Living" or, to take it a step further, "Disciplines for Living" that (a) don't rely on supernaturalist belief or doctrines; (b) that are founded on the ageless principle "knowing better is doing better"; (c) that are founded on modern age understanding of things (in large part, thanks to science and history); (d) whose focuses include life strategies and "best practices" in the art of living? Insofar as you can, it's not tilting at windmills as much as some would have us believe.



** less confusing than deterministic which has multiple defs (which few on the previous page, other than a hint by moose and jstan, seem to want to point out)

.....

Jogill,

in short I work in research and dvt, mostly as a developer (despite being left-brain linear and right-brain dead, I guess, according to some around here) at that very busy intersection where science, philosophy, religion, modernity, sociopolitics, and thought leadership meet up. With a developer's eye (if not foolishness) on the theory and development of "Programs for Living" in the modern age - and despite, :) our mechanistic nature and life's seamy side (ignorance, injustices, greed, mortality, predicaments, etc.).

For the first 35 years of my life (the prophase formative years) my passion and "profession" were at the intersection of physical sciences and life sciences, my work was in both engineering (chiefly control and electronic), and biology (mostly neuroscience) at a major research university.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 5, 2013 - 09:38am PT
All this is really interesting, but in the context of the convergence of Politics, God, Religion and science why focus on how extensive free will is? In this context to give freewill any amount of significant relevance you must agree with Karl Rove in that "We create our own reality".

In other words there exists other realities that operate independant of the one reality that we currently live and die within. Sounds fascinating and I'm sure it would make a good movie. Actually I think I've already seen it.




I'm pretty sure I have experienced free will with certain pharmaceuticals, but then maybe I just think I did.
WBraun

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 09:42am PT
The difference between matter and spirit, is the world of ideas (matter) and the world as it is (spirit) .......
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 5, 2013 - 09:57am PT
Much is known about the afterlife.

Economic Treatise

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 5, 2013 - 10:16am PT
You're not going to get anywhere in meaningful discussion concerning either "free will" or "determinism" until you bother enough (care enough) to distinguish the many varieties. It's the same with "God" and "spirit." At least thank goodness there is enough common sense in the species and its cultures to bother enough to distinguish the many varieties of "animal."

Regarding "determinism", till you bother enough to distinguish (a) deterministic in the predictable (computable) sense (of Laplace's demon) from (b) deterministic in the causal or mechanistic sense, you're fated to get nowhere - at least in mixed public company.

"Deterministic" in the mechanistic sense, you'll note, is independent of any mind or of knowing or of any computing or reasoning power (to predict).
MH2

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 10:19am PT
Free will has nothing to do with the nervous system.


Your fingers did the typing? No nerves were used in creating the above statement?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 5, 2013 - 10:29am PT
Yes, the last post and quote show (or in Largospeak, "betray") the inherent trouble with this motley crew. Where are the teachers?! :)
WBraun

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 10:41am PT
No nerves were used in creating the above statement?


It's NOT the source of "Free Will".

You're confusing yourself .....
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 5, 2013 - 11:37am PT
First, I had to look up Determinism and then hit the nut. As Fruity (Is there anything you don't know about?)

Laplace's Demon
:

We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.

—Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities[3]

That, and somebody already posted the Pill Scene out of The Matrix, which is a movie that I LOVE.

It seems to me that "Scientific" Determinism is, if I have it right, incorrect. You cannot reverse non linear equations, chaotic systems, or quantum effects.

So I say, yeah, we have free will. Meaning that I could hit Post This Reply or go off surfing porn, which is boring at my age. Waxed vag just seems a little weird to me.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
It seems to me that "Scientific" Determinism is, if I have it right, incorrect. You cannot reverse non linear equations, chaotic systems, or quantum effects.

If all possibilities are in fact realized at once and all moments of time - past, present, and future - exist simultaneously, then what does 'determinism' really mean? That you chose to be this you (for this moment)? And if such is the case does reversibility mean anything? And is anything really chaotic (or is it simply a matter of a limited perspective)?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
Yeah, it is like the butterfly effect if I'm learning correctly. I'm wasting time on wiki at the moment.

It really does have all sorts of implications. Perhaps someone well versed in this should take over.

From what I already know, I would say that there is no physical determinism unless you believe in a theistic form. God already knows everything that has occurred and will occur. He gives us free will, or the illusion of it, so that he can what?

Decide who goes to hell?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
He gives us free will, or the illusion of it, so that he can what?

Pretty much gets to the heart of religion.

No different than the vedic gerbil-wheel view of infinite purgatories until you gain nirvana (who decides?) Religion pretty much boils down to pain of endless varieties, infinite purgatories, and some non-deterministic achievement of some pain-free end state.

Who is being entertained by such claptrap stupidity? You have to concoct some pretty elaborate fairy tales to explain why spirits would ever fall so low as to suffer a corporeal existence or for any corporeal reality to exist at all as anything but 'spiritual' road prison one is condemned to for reasons unknown. I mean, just who do you have to piss off to end up in this shithole?

It's all pointlessly ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Jstan wrote:

If there were a god, that entity’s input would be among the available data external to the organism. This last sentence defines the historic question precisely.

__

Precisely - for a materialist.

Few engaged in any kind of ongoing spiritual practice would posit god as an entity. This is trying to make over that realm in a way that the rational mind can grock onto and get to calculating the data. Basically trying to calculate your way to heaven, so to speak.

As I said earlier, You can't lop off the non-linear right brain here and get any results. Freyman can keep on saying to leave off everything and start calculating but has this ever bore any spiritual fruit? Of course not. It's no fault of spirituality, but the fact that the gardner is working on the wrong tree.

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Few engaged in any kind of ongoing spiritual practice would posit god as an entity.

What? In my church going days I was certainly taught that God was someone. Since we were created in his image, he must be human, or close.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
Basically trying to calculate your way to heaven, so to speak.

Well, it still keeps coming back to the question of why would any 'spirit' choose to bother with a corporeal existence in the first place. Why come to this shithole where you break ankles and have to spend half your time just trying to divine what the f*#k your doing here to begin with? What would possibly be (quite literally) the point?
Getch

Mountain climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Any evidence for free will that doesn't require faith in god?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Jan,

you might like what Douglas Murray says here...



He starts at 1:22.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XpEjVlPFrs&feature=youtu.be

Douglas Murray - Associate Director of the Henry Jackson Society and founder of the Centre for Social Cohesion, Murray is also a commentator on issues of religion, immigration and extremism.

He sticks it to the "proposition" which includes Dawkins.


P.S. I love the British Way. The nuances, eg. Always something new, too. In this piece: What in the heck is... The Only Way is Essex. :)

.....

A physicist speaks, at 1:04:30...
"We don't have truth anymore."


Is this true? (Remind you of anyone here? lol.)

Is this what they're teaching in deep physics nowadays?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
Precisely - for a materialist.

Few engaged in any kind of ongoing spiritual practice would posit god as an entity.


well is god a force - or not? I bet if you polled the average congregation, 85% would say he's a guy thing with a beard and wearing a robe. Another whatever percent would say maybe he's black or - gasp! - a woman, possibly a dog.

Maybe half a percent abstractly envision some sort of "energy". Either way God is uniformly accapted as an entity or thing that asserts a force within our "world".

So you say we are all materialists then?


HFCS - thanks for the video. It entrenchs my dogma.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
I'm not saying "spiritual practice" meaning old time Abrahamic, doctrine driven religion. The difference between religion and spirituality is so vast that it is safe to say the gulf separating them is as large as the one between science and religion. Perhaps even greater.

Spirituality is in essence the application of a supervised, esoteric technique or practice, be it yoga or meditation or fill in the blank. None of the viable paths are beholden to doctrine or beliefs or faith or goblins and dancing angels. Last night at the center the leader said, "The starting point is that there is no hope. We're all gonna die. Now what?"

That's the stepping off point for many spiritual practices. They are not parachutes to avoid mortality, but practices to go with during our numbered days.

JL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 5, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
cool - I think. But then for the purpose of this thread, politics / religion (same thing) must take into account the popularly held belief as the power to be reckoned with. The minority view is of little consequence, politically speaking.
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