Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 12261 - 12280 of total 22770 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 4, 2013 - 08:06am PT
stolen from aDMT post on Americans are retarded thread - worth posting here:



“All the world’s major religions, with their emphasis on love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.”


in my opinion:

The Dalai Lama nails it. Fascinating that he is capable of such insight while his native culture, one that is firmly anchored in a spiritual belief structure, is being purposely eliminated by the Chinese. If he was a run of the mill bible thumper he would be embarking on a holy jhad or Armagedon or Jones town or some other delusion of grandeur .

The implications of embracing "ethics beyond religion" would require a repudiation of tribalism, as that is the basis of ethics originating from religion.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 4, 2013 - 08:22am PT
Science doesn't offend me. What offends me are those who are atheists to such a degree that they pull down historic structures of Judeo-Christian faith. There are many other faiths in the USA with religious structures on public lands yet you don't go after them. Christendom doesn't go after them. Me thinks Satan, Lucifer knows his enemy and wields his children to do his bidding. I was primarily talking about structures. But now in the public arena Atheists are doing just what you complain about, and using man's sometimes unjust laws to do so. Seems to me a violation of the second amendment, the separation of church and state. Atheism is a faith, a religion, and it is wielding the law of the land to push its agenda.

At last someone shows up willing to discuss rather than quote scripture - thanks Klimmer!
I think Jan was addressing some of the points you make above. The historical structures you mention provide cultural structure which if destroyed could result in anarchy. The "assault" on christianity is particularly a threat because christianity is so freaking politically powerful. Hardly anyone gives a rats ass about the assault on scientology here or the genocidal assault on Tibetan buddism in Tibet because they are so light weight.

I'm curious, from a purely faith stand point (not to do with pragmatism) what exactly do you have against losing some "historical structures of the judeo -christian faith"? If some of the mythology was to be proven wrong in the literal sense for instance, would that not result in a better understanding of your faith?

Would it be the same death scentence that Mormonism would face if it could be conclusively proven that Joseph Smith was a snake oil salesman who hit the gold mine?

What do you think of the Dalai Lama quote mentioned above?
WBraun

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 08:49am PT
the all knowing Google

That is a joke, right?
WBraun

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 08:51am PT
but so far they haven't been needed in our current understanding of how the universe works.

The entire material Universe is the external inferior energy of God.

So you're wrong ......
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 4, 2013 - 09:08am PT
the all knowing Google

That is a joke, right?

Oh no Werner. Google is D_g. Get the fuk on board or die
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2013 - 09:14am PT
What about the missing ingredients Werner??

I'm waiting...
Or were you just thinking/speculating/guessing...

and you got nothing as usual
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:14am PT
Got to love googly eyes...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#288118
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:19am PT
I'm still waiting for Fruity to come out of the pigeon coup and ask an honest question about spirituality for which he doesn't already have an answer (the 'right" answer) in his head.

Of course he won't, which underscores the glitch in the Harris school: They are not engaged in a true inquiry, for without questions, there can be no new learning. For Fruity, he'd have leave off that dead dog he keeps kicking (Abrahamic doctrinal religion) and stretch his mind in another direction. We can encourage this expansion, but so long as the pigeon flies in one and only one direction, there is no helping him.

JL

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 4, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
It's gonna be interesting if this thread ever starts chewing on Free Will, which is where many of the crucial elements of this discussion find full traction. "Free" means non-deterministic, meaning that we have a choice that is not beholden to mechanical, antecedent causes, or any causes.

From a strict, forward running, linear, mechanistic view of causality, which is a let brain, discursive mind view, how could any choice not come from some prior cause? Are we saying that some choices are spontaneous and are unborn and unproduced by something that came before. We sort of get an by immaculate conception - out of the blue. But in fact even "put of" betrays my mind wanting to posit the free act as arising from something, even the blue. So from the rational mind we must say there is no free will because discursively we cannot fathom a thought of action unrelated to anything. We can only imagine all things as products of prior material causes.

But when we but out that defense to the judge, that I really didn't have a choice in stealing my neighbors sports car, he'll hear none of it.

Why?

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 4, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
^^^Two posts up. ^^^ Sore loser. Still holding that grudge, I see, after the severe intellectual beating I gave you last year, lol!

You monkey wrench. Stay out of my works, we'll get along just fine.

.....

that dead dog he keeps kicking

You speak in riddles, your stock n trade. If you're referring to Abrahamic myths (or Abrahamic theological doctrines) they are hardly dead by some counts. Look no further than Go-b or Klimmer as a true believer right here. Address them, tell them their stories are mere myths, dead doctrines. Maybe we could get an interesting tit for tat out of that one. I'd read it.

P.S. And then we have Bruce encouraging Klimmer to post more on his modern whack Christian theism. Does he not know Klimmer's long, long history of posting on these matters? He's encouraging him! Aughh! Yep, motley crew unstructured, 8th grade max, I'd say. :(

.....

Anybody see the Cambridge debate uploaded just a couple days ago? A physicist speaks three-quarters the way through, reminded me of EH as he speaks of a peculiar (narrowly defined if not impractical) concept of "truth."

.....

EDIT TO ADD

Regarding free will, it's way over your head, imo. A man should know his limitations. Any truly modern and meaningful discourse on "free will" and its varieties starts with science, scientific wisdom, regarding material and human functioning. Have you prepared in these areas?

WADR.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 4, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
It's gonna be interesting if this thread ever starts chewing on Free Will

Good attempt to divert this thread into something of broader interest, JL. I hope you succeed.


;>\
WBraun

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Regarding free will, it's way over your head.

That means you're a mental speculator and have no good brain if it's over your head, HFCS

Why is your brain over your head HFCS?

Every human being has independent free will.

I have the choice to do wrong.

I have the choice to do right.

So .... unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will.

If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 4, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
It's gonna be interesting if this thread ever starts chewing on Free Will

What, as if this thread hasn't gone around on this before. (!!) Numerous times. More than plenty enough already.

I'd rather talk about electrocution by car battery, no thanks.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 4, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
What, as if this thread hasn't gone around on this (free will) before. (!!) Numerous times. More than plenty enough already.


Maybe I missed it, but it is well established that a materialistic/ mechanistic/deterministic world view is mutually exclusive with "free" will, regardless of how we actually behave in the real world. "Programs for Living" and all the rest make no sense in a strictly determined world.

This is heavy lifting.

Note that the left brain seems entirely determined, one thing following from the last. But the right brain . . .

Tis a puzzlement.

JL

moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 4, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
The chaos theory liberated us from the Newtonian mechanistic world, me think.

Edit: At least from our point of view, we can not determine the future. Whether some superior intellect can calculate it, it's irrelevant to us.

Edit: At least science give us a chance to have free will :)
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 4, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
It's gonna be interesting if this thread ever starts chewing on Free Will, which is where many of the crucial elements of this discussion find full traction. "Free" means non-deterministic, meaning that we have a choice that is not beholden to mechanical, antecedent causes, or any causes.

I'm getting tired of this sh#t. I tried to nudge it into a free will direction about twenty posts ago. Nobody listens to me other than Fruity, and he just reads my stuff to rip me a new one. Dude, are you mean to dogs?

This god vs atheism topic is soooo boring. It isn't even a debate.

moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 4, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
I'm getting tired of this sh#t. I tried to nudge it into a free will direction about twenty posts ago. Nobody listens to me other than Fruity

Not true, I tried.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 4, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
Understanding free will or limited free will has the potential to be about as clear as the nurture vs nature debate among behaviorists. Good luck on that one.
WBraun

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
This god vs atheism topic is soooo boring. It isn't even a debate.

Hahaha LOL

Don't worry Base. I've known who you are all along.

You did some bad ass sh!t and I was impressed. You're also a super great guy.

I read all your posts although I don't respond to them I really appreciate the time you spend on them.

It shows your commitment and special interests in life.

You're not and never have been flaky.

Best of wishes to you ........

moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 4, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
To recap my take on free will.

Quantum mechanics and chaos theory tell us that we can't determine the future, which means that free will is compatible with science.

I am not aware of any experiments that could prove or disprove the existence of free will.

We should act as we have free will.

If we do have free will we don't use it often because we are conditioned to make certain decisions.


Messages 12261 - 12280 of total 22770 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews