Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 12101 - 12120 of total 22819 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:57am PT
There are infinite paths to 'isness' and among them are no shortage of those which exhibit high levels of structure, rigor, and ritual - but such requirements have nothing whatsoever to do with 'isness' and everything to do with the seekers who require them.
-


I would be interested in hearing about your personal experiences per the "infinite paths" that led you to believe the curriculum, whatever you actually practiced, had "nothing" to do with the outcome, which in fact was a projection of the student all along.

Imagine trying to sell this silly argument about grad school.

JL
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:02am PT
Actually, I think both sides are right but they are talking different levels. Every eastern retreat center I've been to, over half the people there told me that they got interested in meditation after psychedelic drug experiences. On the other hand, most people who took psychedelics did not enlighten themselves or the world but went on to the next generation of recreational drugs. There are many different ways to awaken to another level of consciousness - everything from a Zen master's whack on your shoulder to a hit of acid. Where you go with it from there, depends on you.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 27, 2013 - 02:09am PT
A good comparison is acting. Lots of schools and studios run by 'masters' and many highly structured and rigorous, but countless good actors come into the business by other means. But, I have no doubt whatsoever you believe you need a structured and rigorous 'method' and the authoritative attentions of a master. Where you err, and err egregiously, is in the assumption that attaining 'isness' somehow must require such means versus it simply being a matter of you needing them.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 27, 2013 - 03:43am PT
unusual historical information compilation from Russian TV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwUpPwyyvLw&feature=player_embedded
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 27, 2013 - 06:21am PT
I just watched "The Master," which is a thinly veiled story based on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. It was pretty weird. The weird thing is how people flocked to it in the fifties. I think it would be interesting if others have seen it and would comment.

He was no doubt the master, and ended up being called just "Master."

It reminds me of some of the spiritual paths that I see here.

Now. Who is the Master and who is gulping the product? Is that a little harsh? Was Hubbard a prophet or a quack? How do you know the difference?

I think that I am going to go read a scientology book to see how weird it gets.



new world order2

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 11:26am PT
"Does consciousness do war? No, it does peace."

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/80619-david-icke-the-end-of-the-schism-moving-to-consciousness-from-mind-letting-go-of-fear

"You cannot solve problems, with the same level of consciousness that created them." --Albert Einstein
WBraun

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
we're not trying to ask unanswerable questions

A lot of times folks actually believe questions are unanswerable.

They are answerable.

Just not always with words here but thru real "life" experiences.

Some questions are not answerable in this lifetime yet for certain individuals due to them not being ready yet.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Ron Hubbard was not known as 'Master'. He was known as 'Commodore' (on the ships) or 'Author' or 'Source', but most often just as 'Ron'.

Ron didn't claim any deity or prophet status. His stature among followers was based upon his very extensive creative works and knowledge on a wide range of subjects. It was hard to mention any subject from philosophy to psychiatry to celestial navigation to camera lenses to ship engines to paint chemistry where he had not studied the subject in great detail. Whatever else you may think of him, you have to admire his creative energy.

Ron was an incredibly energetic and prolific author and compiled knowledge from many sources throughout the world, doing a great deal of original research on his own and with associates. The compilation of all these writings is known within his organization as the source materials. The internal integrity of the source materials are representative of his personal philosophy based upon all this accumulation of knowledge and research results. Whether or not you agree with his synthesis of understanding, it is an impressive body of work.

It appears that many people throughout his life didn't relate well to his aggressive attitude of superiority. He rarely attributed concepts to others and his accounts of his own history are strongly biased to his own viewpoint (how unusual...good thing we don't know any climbers like that...) And there were frustrated practical joker aspects to his personality that are very disturbing to people who take everything too seriously with too little knowledge.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
I think many people on this thread struggle mightily with the idea that there are various levels of achievement or clarity per spiritual matters in the same sense that there are various levels of academic achievement - ie, BA, MS, Phd, yada yada. An abiding idea here, and laughingly ignorant in my experience, is that a real cowboy c#m natural man can arrive at his very own isness just as rapidly and profoundly as some dupe in a highly ritualized outfit where everyone is licking the boots of the "Master" who is the equal of L. Ron Hubbard, a notorious charletan.

For instance, Healjy writes: "Where you err, and err egregiously, is in the assumption that attaining 'isness' somehow must require such means versus it simply being a matter of you needing them."

Here, the silly boy assumes that merely needing "isness" (he's not said what this is, experientially, to him) is the same as receiving or experiencing same. Again, the real cowboy does it all himself. And anyone thinking expert instruction is needed or advised is in erring "egregiously."

The danger here is that Healyj is not speaking from direct experience, but is guessing based on what he has read. That's easy to discern based on his distorted ideas about how modern western spiritual outfits are run, and what the practice consists of.

The next part is that he is half right.

As I've said, everyone is basically left to work it all out themselves. The spiritual practices and outfits are there to make the process vastly more efficient, not to sate weak kneed folk's desire to worship at the feet of masters. This is silly, and we all know it - as though any hard core climber on this thread is going to be a blind follower or some high lama. The idea is sophmoric.

The outfits simply accord a student a structure to do what he or she would almost never have the skill or discipline to do on their own. For instance, most people would never be able to stay silent for a week and avoid eye contact as well. This practice forces a person to be entirely with their own process without distractions. Etc. There are many other examples.

I think many people here simply cannot get their heads around the idea that there are actual experts in spiritual matters, that whatever they "know" can just as easily be learned or experienced with no routine, no discipline, no method, and no instruction. The lie here is that none of us actually live our lives like that. In casual affairs, it is fine to be entirely self educated. But when it maters, you have to have credentials or you are not legally allowed to practice law or medicine or fill in the blank. What people believe here is that ALL spiritual credentials are meaningless because the "product" is itself either imaginary or is attainable through cognition or by the natural dood just being natural, like the Great Lebowski.

Again, virtually all of these opinions are from people who have no actual experience in a structured spiritual disicpline. Anyone with an honest curiosity should consider a mild intro into the field with, say, a week long silent Vapassana retreat, then report back and see if your direct experience at all, in any way shape or form, squares with what Healyj is ranting about. I'll even arrange it for you if you really want to bust a move.

But my sense of it is that the bulk of the detractors are only interested in ranting about it. Faced with with the actual lead, so to speak, they don't have the ambition or sack to even try the first move.

JL




cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 27, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Yeah, punk, think you're MAN ENOUGH for ZEN?

Most original marketing ploy ever.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 27, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
Largo: I think many people on this thread struggle mightily with the idea that there are various levels of achievement or clarity per spiritual matters in the same sense that there are various levels of academic achievement - ie, BA, MS, Phd, yada yada.

Not at all. I keep pointing out there are no shortage of folks who need structured approaches to 'spirituality' with their attending steppings and the ribbons, bows, and recognition of 'achievement'. The complete failure here is to believe that has anything whatsoever to do with spirituality or 'isness' or that "clarity" can only be arrived at in that manner.

Largo: Here, the silly boy assumes that merely needing "isness" (he's not said what this is, experientially, to him) is the same as receiving or experiencing same.

Entirely laughable given we're ten thousand posts down the road and we've heard around a dozen words from a veritable literary savant telling us what this is, experimentally, to him.

Largo: The danger here is that Healyj is not speaking from direct experience, but is guessing based on what he has read. That's easy to discern based on his distorted ideas about how modern western spiritual outfits are run, and what the practice consists of.

That would be a clueless and, again, egregiously wrong and arrogant statement.

Largo: As I've said, everyone is basically left to work it all out themselves. The spiritual practices and outfits are there to make the process vastly more efficient, not to sate weak kneed folk's desire to worship at the feet of masters. This is silly, and we all know it - as though any hard core climber on this thread is going to be a blind follower or some high lama. The idea is sophmoric.

And yet you can't envision or accept there are endless ways of arriving at the same place without such structure and masters. No wonder those savage aboriginal peoples of the Earth with master-less and unstructured approaches to spirituality are just so damn lost and devoid of 'isness'.

Largo: I think many people here simply cannot get their heads around the idea that there are actual experts in spiritual matters, that whatever they "know" can just as easily be learned or experienced with no routine, no discipline, no method, and no instruction. The lie here is that none of us actually live our lives like that. In casual affairs, it is fine to be entirely self educated. But when it matters, you have to have credentials or you are not legally allowed to practice law or medicine or fill in the blank.

Your need for authoritativeness, achievement, recognition, and credentialling has already been fully noted.

Largo: Again, virtually all of these opinions are from people who have no actual experience in a structured spiritual disicpline. Anyone with an honest curiosity should consider a mild intro into the field with, say, a week long silent Vapassana retreat, then report back and see if your direct experience at all, in any way shape or form, squares with what Healyj is ranting about. I'll even arrange it for you if you really want to bust a move.

My daughter was doing ten day Vapassana retreats in high school and in fact went back all through college over her breaks. And I was clearly just a tourist at all those Asian Zendos. 'Dood' is for sure the right appellation here.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 27, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
John Long, I will again ask you:

Given that I AM seriously interested in finding out the "advantages" of pursuing and learning more about this spirituality you speak about, would you mind saying just what this knowledge does for you personally?

it must have changed you somehow in a very positive way from when you first looked into this or you would not be such a strong advocate.....

can you elaborate a little?
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Largo.....I am up for just about anything at just about any time. If I were to take you up on it, would you then take psilocybin alone in silent darkness?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 27, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Healjy said: "And I was clearly just a tourist at all those Asian Zendos."

We'd be interested in hearing about your experiences in Asian Zendos.

I think where you are losing your way is in believing the structure and the silence and the instruction of the masters produces some thing just as easily attained, or which you are certain can be squeezed out of "going native," perhaps, and letting the groovy universe work it's mojo on my isness.

Having been on over a dozen expeditions to the most primitive places on earth, including Borneo, Papua, and Irian Jaya, the experience of digging for grubs in the rain forest is not exactly what I am driving at here, though the isnes of same is robust.

I trust I know the primitive, unvarnished natural side of humanity as well as most anyone you have ever met. I spent years embedded in the very heart of it.

JL

Getting my isness on in Irian Jaya
Getting my isness on in Irian Jaya
Credit: Largo
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 27, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
When we lose loved ones to death the separation is HEART-WRENCHING!

At the death of Lazarus, Jesus said to Martha, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.” Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. And He said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.” Jesus wept.

Jesus wept, knowing full well that He was going to raise Lazarus from the Dead, Jesus still wept for He loved them!

More so those that do not enter into resurrection and the life in the Kingdom of God are the ones we should feel sorry for, because they are without hope, and for what? (For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?) JESUS PAID IT ALL!

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Stay spiritually hungry and thirsty my friends!
WBraun

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
The robot arm is inferior to the real arm.

So what is too their credit making this inferior imitation to the superior real arm.

It's all already being done perfectly and these guys think they're advancing making an inferior imitation.

Such an illusion ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
Largo: ...the experience of digging for grubs in the rain forest is not exactly what I am driving at here, though the isness of same is robust.

That's a most gracious qualification in the face of the fact they lack grub masters and five formal levels of grubbery.
John M

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
Everybody is a fool until they are not.

Of those on this thread recently, I rate Jan as having the least ego. Ego is the creation of the lower self which blocks the knowing and experience of ones higher self. It takes the place of the higher self. Not that I have read this entire thread. I haven't.

Just my opinion.

drugs can help one understand that there is more then one level to life, but they can not help you reach the spiritual realm. They can be used to force open the door to the astral realm. The astral realm is not heaven/the higher spiritual realms. The astral realm is the next level above the gross material realm. You can not reach heaven by force.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
JohnM, you are as right as wrong. Drugs don't do anything.....you do it.

Again it is all a moot point. Spending the gift of your human existence chasing the dragon is completely missing the point in a round about way.

Dr F's cactus pictures are by far the coolest and most inspiring part of this thread.

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