Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 12101 - 12120 of total 22767 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 20, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
the atheists remain in ultimately perpetual bewilderment and mislead themselves down the drain of ephemeral gross materialism.

I am writing it down as one of my favorite quotes. (Even if I have no idea what you mean). LOL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Jan 20, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Jan, I agree with what you say about a strategic advantage to reigning in the appearance of elitism or snobbery. It should be part of any little song and dance that requires diplomacy - and what civilized discourse dosn't require some diplomacy? But quite literally such a strategy can be stretched to self defeating lengths. Quite simply the annoying "atheists" (or other denizens of reality) consistently win the day on almost all points of rational analysis of the physical evidence. This triggers the anxiety filled fight or flight reflex and the first volley is the charge of condescending ellitism which we all know is nothing but an avoidance of addressing the real issues of argument. The crime that Fox News commits is pretending that it is authentic professional journalism while legitimizing stupidity with the term "Fair and Balanced".

That creationist road trip video of Jingy is just one simple example and it illustrates my assertion that the usual response of a diehard ideologue to overwhelming challenge to their belief structure is to shoot the messenger. If they really had a rational argument then let's hear it. If they don't then if they value the truth over ideology they would concede defeat honorably.

And that is the real problem with Lance Armstrong. We all know he's a worthless prick who cheated but by the ethics of present day america he will attempt to keep his ill earned gold.
It will be interesting to see if we let him, but so far we have let Bush and Cheney get away with it haven't we? Will we also let Scientology get away with it?

What they would prefer is that you be a good boy and just keep your bad news to yourself.

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 20, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
Mr. Smartypants makes a point:


Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 21, 2013 - 03:32am PT
Thanks Jim, we can use some levity around here!

I also understand part of the reaction to my comments now from Bruce Kay's post. I don't watch Fox News so I had forgotten that they claim to be fair and balanced. No wonder those have become taboo words!

Meanwhile I think we need a sense of proportion here. Fundamentalists are annoying but to my way of thinking, they're not in the same league as the educated and cynical scientologists and Bush and Cheney. Life is short and energy finite. We all have to pick our battles and hopefully we choose the tools appropriate to the task.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 22, 2013 - 09:24am PT
It's esp frustrating when you and what your value (e.g., your science modeling) are attacked from both the American left and the American right. (Thank goodness our OW work has prepared us for this - to keep the charge - to keep cranking - or we might give up in despair being sandwiched in this way.)

A current Michael Shermer piece...


Moose, thanks for the pic. That's her! :)


Bill Maher continues to speak power (wisdom) to iron age or medieval bs. He's back from vacation now. Real Time with Bill Maher. Last Friday's was very good, watch if you can.


Good News: The secular movement is here to stay.

Instead of... The seculars are organized, I'd say... The seculars are organizing. (You ain't seen nothing yet.)


if the secular movement seems like a new phenomenon (and it is), that’s because many of these nonreligious and nontheistic Americans have only recently begun to appreciate their secular identity. By remaining in the closet for decades as the religious right was growing into a major political force, seculars inadvertently helped create a landscape ripe for anti-intellectualism and disastrous public policy. The modern secular movement can be understood as a response to that mistake, taking root as seculars increasingly realize that they must be “out” and visible in order to fight back against the religious right.

It's funny strange how, even on this site, people at once (at one and the same time) can (a) say you gotta get out, express yourself, defend science and science edu, keep the charge in the face of religious nonsense; and (b) criticize you for coming out, expressing yourself, defending science and sci edu, and for keeping the charge against religious nonsense. Perfectly human, eh? :)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:25am PT
re: The Internet and social media have changed everything

Hahaha, compare:

(a) A generation ago, if you were a secular living in, say, Columbia, South Carolina, you may have thought you were the only one for twenty miles in any direction. Today, however, by using tools such as meetup.com, you can quickly discover that there is a group called the Freethought Society of the Midlands, with almost 400 members eager to get together.

(b) A generation ago, if you were a rock climber living in, say, Coleville, California, you may have thought you were the only one for twenty miles in any direction. Today, however, by using tools such as supertopo.com, you can quickly discover that there is a group called the Super Taco of CMac, with almost 400 members eager to get together.

"Thanks to the Internet and social media, seculars are identifying openly, finding community, and connecting with one another in ways that simply were not possible just a few years ago."

Internet sites are "tools" that are changing everything.

"When high school sophomore Jessica Ahlquist challenged a prayer banner hanging in her public school in 2011, she was met with great hostility from her community, but she found much camaraderie online. A Facebook group formed to voice support for her effort, and thousands joined. Such solidarity among seculars was nonexistent before the Internet, but is widespread now...."


Here's a favorite of the aforementioned piece...

"No matter what you think of the central assertion made by the secular community – that a good life can be attained within the framework of the natural world, without reliance on claims of supernatural beliefs – it's hard to call it unreasonable."

"Bearing in mind that all the major western religions claim not only that God exists, but go far beyond that to assert the notion of divine revelation (that is, that God communicated with ancient prophets and revealed fundamental truths to them), one can understand the secular movement as simply reflecting a modern realization that such claims seem implausible, that ethics and inner peace can be achieved without divine revelation. Unlike the clerics of traditional religion, seculars do not claim to have found that elusive concept known as “Absolute Truth.” Disagree with seculars if you will, but it’s hard to call their naturalistic approach patently unreasonable."

Hebrews 1:3
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
Psalm 103:1 Bless the Lord, O my soul;
And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
And forget not all His benefits:
3 Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases,
4 Who redeems your life from destruction,
Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
5 Who satisfies your mouth with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.

6 The Lord executes righteousness
And justice for all who are oppressed.
7 He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the children of Israel.
8 The Lord is merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
9 He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;

12 **As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.**

13 As a father pities his children,
So the Lord pities those who fear Him.
14 For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass;
As a flower of the field, so he flourishes.
16 For the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
And its place remembers it no more.
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting
On those who fear Him,
And His righteousness to children’s children,
18 To such as keep His covenant,
And to those who remember His commandments to do them.

19 The Lord has established His throne in heaven,
And His kingdom rules over all.
20 Bless the Lord, you His angels,
Who excel in strength, who do His word,
Heeding the voice of His word.
21 Bless the Lord, all you His hosts,
You ministers of His, who do His pleasure.
22 Bless the Lord, all His works,
In all places of His dominion.

Bless the Lord, O my soul!

Who needs twenty miles, I'll take one step East!

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Real Time with Bill Maher. Last Friday's was very good, watch if you can.

Yep, he is back. Good stuff!

Ice climber
the ghost
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:28pm PT

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
Malemute, lol and true, but it won't keep me from trying.

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:11pm PT

Irene Sendra, a researcher in the Department of Theoretical Physics and History of Science of the UPV/EHU’s Faculty of Science and Technology, is collaborating with Adam Riess, one of the 2011 Nobel Prize Winners for Physics, to study whether dark energy is dynamic, and investigate a proposal that would unite dark energy and dark matter.

The current model, Lambda-Cold Dark Matter (CDM) explains the acceleration of the universe by means of the cosmological constant from Einstein’s theory of relativity, Lambda. But, this model assumes that this constant is, well, constant. As in, the universe has been and will forever be expanding at its current rate. This team is looking for a dynamic dark energy that would vary over time.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
Credit: Donald Thompson
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 24, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Jan 25, 2013 - 08:30am PT
Go Be - I have a question for you and anyone else of the christian faith

Why are you not vocally attacking the Christian Evangelical movement? It seems to me that they are purposely promoting hatred and violence all under the guise of the loving grace of Jesus.

Anybody who has been following the action in Uganda these days should be demanding an accounting from these scurrilous rogues and the ones leading the charge should be those who are christian.


Watch the documentary. Here's a trailer:


Hebrews 1:3
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Bruce Kay...

God calls Christians to do his will (which IS the right thing) even when others don't!
Though I know God doesn't want us involved in the sin of homosexuality, we are supposed to have love for our brothers and sisters, and to say to do harm to them is EVIL and a much worse sin!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
re: spirit, spirituality, spirit theories


In my field of practice (which is not any religion, nor scientology, lol) we've got a spirit theory, too. A few fundamentals: (1) Spirit flows through ALL living things (not just humans). (2) Spirit, as far as the individual goes, is mortal, flesh-based, flesh-driven, emphemeral (short-lasting), finite. In other words, spirit is only borrowed and one day you have to give it back. (3) It's a sign of growing up from child to adult, also a sign of maturity, esp now in the modern world, to come to grips with the first two fundamentals, which result from a modern, scientific understanding of how life works.

Jan 25, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
Spirit, as far as the individual goes, is mortal,

Spirit is never mortal and always eternal.

That's why it's called "spirit".

Mental speculators who have no clue what spirit is will make up sh!t to suit themselves and substantiate their guessing .....


Hebrews 1:3
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.

7 **Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it**.

8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher,
“All is vanity.”
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
We've been over this before, but let's repeat here for sake of tedium...

The original "spirit" comes from the Latin, spirare, to breathe. Simple as that. Only religions muck up this fine word.

The living spirit is mortal. Sorry. Reality bites.

But I'll concede the word's def depends on the belief system. Thankfully, (a) the traditional belief systems of Abrahamica and Hinduism and (b) the new-agers, like Scientology, aren't the only ones.

Jan 25, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
It doesn't have anything to do with any belief system.

Spirit is not matter and is eternal.

It matters not what you or I say or anyone.

Spirit is eternal and is the eternal fact, summon bonum.

The living entity is spirit soul and exists before and after the desolation of the gross physical body.

Doesn't matter what you theorize or speculate the fact and ultimate truth remains ....

Spirit is eternal and life comes from life .......

Messages 12101 - 12120 of total 22767 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

Try a free sample topo!

SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews