Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 12061 - 12080 of total 22385 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 07:46am PT
Tom: Drugs produce rapid dramatic results in expansion of awareness...but in a manner that is very destructive to the local awareness and thus collapses a person into a lower state with rearranged memories and beliefs but substantially lower net awareness

I couldn't disagree more strongly and saying "drugs" is a lot like saying "sports" - are we talking curling, rugby, 60m single-handed yacht racing, football, bull fighting, Sarlagan polo, or Russian roulette?

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2013 - 11:04am PT
I use the words, "I don't beleive" because I don't know enough about the subject to understand the science behind it, or the idea is wrong, and I was correct to doubt it.

which means once I study more about the subject, I will be able to use the words "I understand"

I'm still not sure about "Dark Matter", it seems based only on a need to make some equation work, maybe there are other things at work, or the equation is wrong when it come to the overall expansion of the universe.

I will check out some of your links Ed.


Here are some others that were debunked before I got to rail against them

    Netrinos faster than the speed of Light!!
    Bacteria use arsenic instead of phosphorus!!


and this I'm still working on, "Humans have never demonstrated the use of Free Will"
I think I may be correct in the end on this one, Humans have used Free Will, but just not as much as we think we do.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 26, 2013 - 11:45am PT
I'm too terrified to open any link of Ed's that dosn't have the word "Offwidth" in it.


Come to think of it, that terrifies me too.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2013 - 11:46am PT
Today's flowers
Credit: Dr. F.


Bruce
so true
This link did not help me understand ice in space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy

MH2

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
I'm too terrified to open any link of Ed's


What are you afraid of?

Oh, oh, OMG!

As soon as you start to relax about the Pioneer anomaly you find the flyby anomaly. AIEEEE!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
Craig asked in what milieu does science not applicable.

BASE posted a thing on isms. Including this one:

scientism = belief that the methods of science are universally applicable

I would expand the definition to say that not only is scientism the belief that science HAS no limitations to investigate the seen and unseen, but that whatever science cannot touch is purely imaginary, and that would include raw awareness (NOT data processing), void, pure dimensionality (minus content/fields), etc.

JL
MH2

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Provide an example of raw awareness and see if science can investigate it. If there is nothing to latch onto there is nothing for the scientific method to be applied to and one is left unsure of how this awareness is manifested in the physical world and how one can even talk about it.

Sounds a little like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_noise

jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
I think it was you, Andy, who suggested some are writing on a purely experiential level. That's fine as long as we do not then look for any discussion involving two different people. For no two experiences are identical and so nothing truly common is there, upon which a well defined discussion can be based. Nothing is defined.

If they are of a mind to do so, one can read experiential writing, experience whatever that brings up, and then move on. But don't expect any of these experiences to be the same.

The activity is primarily recreational. It is not deductive.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
This link did not help me understand ice in space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy

I agree, it's a poor explanation.

The vapor pressure of ice is very low at cold temperatures.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103506003046
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 26, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
that energy is called the enthalpy of sublimation
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
I guess it's colder in space than normal ice

so it doesn't sublimate as fast?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 26, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
A simplification using melting instead of sublimation:

When you melt ice with your hand, your hand gets cold because the ice takes energy from you. No heat source, no melting.

In space, if there is no heat (or radiation) source, the ice just sits there.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 26, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Ed, the idea of "seeking validity" is misguided. Your actual life, the one you truly lead, not the one extruded through your evaluating mind, is the most profound validation about thee basic and fundamental realities. From perspective, abstractions, facts and figures can never exist on the same footing as the irreducible brute reality of your own presence, right here, right now. Deducing values or aspects from same is one step removed from brute reality, including the idea that the whole shebang is "created" by our brain.

He asked: "Provide an example of raw awareness and see if science can investigate it."

Sit down in a chair, keep your spine straight and your eyes half way open, soft focus, and just watch your breath till you physiology starts to slow and you can decelerate into just being there with no interpretation or effort. Notice what is going on - the racing thoughts, the feelings and sensation and memories bubbling on, the conversations, half done, you are having in your head, the future hopes and fears and so on. Notice that there is observing going on, and that the observed and the observer, while linked at the hip, so to speak, are not self-same. Your ego will insist that there is a "you" there watching, but that "you" has no independent existence at all. Neither does awareness and neither does the stuff you are aware of - this last point takes years to get hold of - at least it did for me and it often gets away.

Point is, in this way you can start developing a direct experiential grasp of observing and awareness that you can never arrive at by thinking about it. Over time you understand that this awareness is more like being present with whatever content or qualia flashes through awareness, but you have to go MUCH deeper than handling this as a mere idea or concept, and get the direct experience itself, the irreducible isness of the mofo.

This is the raw awareness that I speak of. It is what the world's leading neuroscientists say "we have no idea whatsoever how this is "created" by the brain," as opposed to objective data processing, for which they have a very workable model.

JL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 26, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
sublimation is a higher order of efficiency in energy transfer, so much so it gets to skip an physical state going from solid to vapor. Perhaps that is what is missing here - a physical state, yet unrecognized or defined, that would link the state of "material" to the "spiritual".
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 26, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Perhaps that is what is missing here - a physical state, yet unrecognized or defined, that would link the state of "material" to the "spiritual".
Psilocyborg already found it
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 26, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
are you suggesting that we should be forever stoned?

is this the missing link?


Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Credit: Psilocyborg
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 26, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
there is no separation between the physical and the spiritual and hence no missing link

there is only creative awareness

you can think about it in many ways, without changing its basic nature and existance

(awareness can be so busy with local thoughts as to obscure the wider dimensions of awareness)
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
can we take a break in this discussion and just laugh??

WBraun

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Mind altering drugs and plants are intoxicants are material and will never lead to the spiritual stratum.

All bonafide spiritual practices condemn drugs.

Otherwise drugs would be God but are not.

Only the imitators of Lord Shiva practice this nonsense.

Lord Shiva could swallow unlimited intoxicants and poisons with no effect at all.

Those who imitate Lord Shiva will run themselves ultimately into ruin .....
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