Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 12041 - 12060 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 25, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
Imagine trying to learn climbing if you had to work the whole shebang up from scratch?

I assume you mean this would be a marvelous experience that is virtually impossible to have today. Not all delight is spun from the wheel of competition.
jstan

climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Imagine trying to learn climbing if you had to work the whole shebang up from scratch?

In this pursuit one is constantly facing new things unprepared. When you have had to figure things out yourself from scratch you have a track record. In the next new situation you can look back at the last sixty times you figured things out well and have some confidence the sixty first situation is just more of the same.

You have some really good data.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
My point is vouchsafed by most every professional scientist you have ever known, few of whom will begrudge themselves for going to school and studying under acknowledged experts, and completing a scholastic curriculum, however grave and tedious.

A dedicated student could possibly learn the same material on their own, but the scholastic path is surely more efficient - we can easily see why.

Especially so with spiritual practices, we all have massive blind spots and come to depend on our peers for course correction. Combining our own data with others is an excellent concept. As mentioned, the glory of doing it all on your own is a common delusion. In my experience, "soft mentoring" is invaluable, since ones works 99% it out on their own anyhow.

It's not all or nothing, or it shouldn't be. And that 1% we get from others can prove an invaluable tipping point.

JL
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Gobee left?

Go-B, definitely come back, but please just come back as you with your own words and personal take on things rather than the bible.

I second this request, I like Gobee!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Maybe I AM too closed minded to get really into it, but I would like to learn a little....

So John Long, how about it?

I am joining those who are asking you give us a briefing on what benefit and methodology you attain and use in your inner pursuits?

seriously, as I know nothing at all about this

too bad you can't do a quick Vulcan Mind Meld on us!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
For those interested in a non religious consideration of reincarnation, the classic in this regard is:

Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation, 2nd ed. by Ian Stevenson

http://www.amazon.com/Twenty-Cases-Suggestive-Reincarnation-Enlarged/dp/0813908728/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361837302&sr=1-1&keywords=Cases+Suggestive+of+Reincarnation
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
go-b will be back

and I will be here,
on and off
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
What would be cool is if!!!!
some one can outline a good explanation of what the hell they are talking about, that would enlighten us skeptics of our delusion.

It's a challenge of biblical proportions

If I was on the their side, I would take it on enthusiastically, like a new 5 star FA I just found.

I can answer almost any question, using science as the authority, go ahead, ask me any question, I will answer it, with some semblance of using science, that science has the explanation for your question. Ed can officiate if I run in to trouble.

You have offered little in comparison.

Shouldn't you take on every challenge when it comes to be completely truthful in your belief system?
Should you test your belief system?


edit
of ccurse I have to back peddle

Any question about spirits, souls , Gods, the bible, and the questions that have already been addressed, etc.
within reason of scientific speculation.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
Thanks, for your thoughts for Peanut and I, jogill, Bruce Kay, BLUEBLOCR , Jan, MH2, BASE104, TomCochrane, healyje, Norton, and Dr. F.!

BLUEBLOCR sorry for your loss of your bestbuddy Jake "Redblocr" as well, and your right about their eyes, so in the moment and so cool...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#291594
photo not found
Missing photo ID#291596
photo not found
Missing photo ID#291598
photo not found
Missing photo ID#291599

At four pounds, he was a BIG DUDE!



jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
My point is vouchsafed by most every professional scientist you have ever known . . .

Just pulling your leg, JL (whoops, bad metaphor!)

I know a little bit about Zen and your admonition is right on.

On the other hand Psilocyborg encourages immediate immersion using drugs. Perhaps you could discuss the merits of these two approaches to enlightenment. He claims that creativity and discovery spring from some inner dimension. I still suspect all such visions are the product of uninhibited mind gathering bits and pieces from memories and reassembling them in phantasmagorical scenarios. But he may be correct; the older I become the less I know.

(what a sweetheart, go-b!)

;>)
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 09:14pm PT
Here's another angle..
Tell us what science can't explain

Let's discuss
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
One other post
I wanted to start a thread on the subject...!!!!

What I don't believe
but I already have enough threads here

so maybe we can discuss this on this thread

What I don't believe:

I start off with a easy one

Ice in space??? How can that work. Isn't that how freeze drying works, all water molecules sublimate under a vacuum.

Dark Matter/Dark energy: ?? just because some equation needs dark matter and energy to work, we have to invent something that we can't measure or figure out what it is??
Isn't it possible that the equation is wrong, and maybe that we will figure out another possibility in the future?
If dark matter was all the space material that we can't see, but is regular solid matter, then I could accept it, there are alot of planets out there orbiting all those billions of stars, but they say that doesn't count as dark matter??

Is it good that a bunch of right wing yahoos are arming themselves to the gills to take on the perceived tyrannical Gov?
No, this will end in disaster!!

I have a couple more, I will post them soon

any one else

Is there something that You Do Not Believe.
MH2

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:13am PT
Thanks again, Jan. Ian Stevenson is someone worth knowing about. I am curious how it occurred to him that birthmarks might be wounds acquired in a previous life. Perhaps it was the LSD.

From his Wikipedia entry I read that Dr. Stevenson found examples of behavior and anatomy that he felt could not be explained by heredity or environment and that reincarnation was a possible explanation. The book on twenty cases was published in 1966 and there may have been some changes since then in what we think is possible in biology.

However, from the perspective of science, which Dr. Stevenson wanted to present his cases to, there is no reliable way to estimate the probability of what he described. Unusual, yes. Improbable enough to seriously consider an explanation like reincarnation? Who knows? If only one of those children, who often described a violent end to their previous life, could have provided evidence good enough to solve an old murder case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 26, 2013 - 02:23am PT
WOW! Is it possible that this goat rope is actually starting to coordinate??!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 26, 2013 - 02:28am PT
On the other hand Psilocyborg encourages immediate immersion using drugs.

Drugs produce rapid dramatic results in expansion of awareness...but in a manner that is very destructive to the local awareness and thus collapses a person into a lower state with rearranged memories and beliefs but substantially lower net awareness
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 26, 2013 - 02:50am PT
Ice in space??? How can that work. Isn't that how freeze drying works, all water molecules sublimate under a vacuum.

Our LCROSS mission was able to verify ice on the moon, by sending an impacter into a polar crater and measuring the contents of the impact debris with an instrument package following the initial impacter. I was in the control room for this experiment. One of my best friends was the chief programmer for the instrument package, Mark Shirley, if you want me to relay questions to him. lcross.arc.nasa.gov/mission.htm

Mark is playing a similar role for the follow-on mission called LADEE.
http://www.nasa.gov/ladee/

Planetary bodies with no atmosphere or very thin atmosphere are constantly impacted by rocks that spread impact debris far and wide as excellent insulating material. On this planet most of these burn up in the upper atmosphere. If we build a moon base, we will carefully insulate it with the regolith impact dust. The Caterpillar company has done a lot of expensive design work for machines to perform this function on the moon or Mars.

Regolith is rather odd stuff and can be microwaved into bricks or paving blocks. Its particle sizes are sub-microscopic and highly abrasive and play havoc with wearing out space suit material and moving machine parts. It penetrates all the pores of metal and cloth and can not be cleaned off. You can see this in the space suits of lunar astronauts in various museums.

As you go farther out in the solar system, there appears to be greater amounts of ice on planetary bodies.

Mars appears to have more water than Earth (our misnamed planet that should be called 'Water'). The red surface dust covers and insulates the ice. Ice is on the surface at the poles and is gradually deeper as you approach the equator, where the ice is usually no more than a few meters deep. It is possible that as you go deeper into the planet, there are underground oceans of liquid water, based upon ground penetrating radar from orbit. We have observed liquid water erupting from the sides of canyons, where it causes dramatic erosion and then quickly evaporates.

If you look at a geologic model of Mars, such as in the visitors center at NASA Ames, you can see on one side a huge impact crater, and on the opposite side a huge bulge, Olympus Mons, the highest mountain in the Solar System. There is a huge canyon running from Olympus Mons around to the other side of the planet, with a huge delta at the lower end of the canyon. The Grand Canyon in SW USA would be a minor tributary to this Valles Marineris.

If you think about all the debris flying around out there, it is rather odd to be riding along on the surface of a planet rather than inside it...we are incredibly privileged...and hanging out there like puppies wandering on the freeway...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 26, 2013 - 03:09am PT
the Voyager spacecrafts are traveling at speeds and distances that dramatically do not match our calculated predictions, for unknown reasons that are being quietly studied

The twin Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft continue exploring where nothing from Earth has flown before. In the 33rd year after their 1977 launches, they each are much farther away from Earth and the Sun than Pluto. Voyager 1 and 2 are now in the "Heliosheath" - the outermost layer of the heliosphere where the solar wind is slowed by the pressure of interstellar gas. Both spacecraft are still sending scientific information about their surroundings through the Deep Space Network (DSN).

The primary mission was the exploration of Jupiter and Saturn. After making a string of discoveries there -- such as active volcanoes on Jupiter's moon Io and intricacies of Saturn's rings -- the mission was extended. Voyager 2 went on to explore Uranus and Neptune, and is still the only spacecraft to have visited those outer planets. The adventurers' current mission, the Voyager Interstellar Mission (VIM), will explore the outermost edge of the Sun's domain. And beyond.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 05:40am PT
Seems like, with the right design intent, you could use a controlled thermal recoil to spin-stabilize a craft during long-haul, thrust-less cruises in order to keep an antenna pointed towards Earth (or do I have that entirely wrong?).
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 07:16am PT
Largo: My obsersvations are based on being around Zendos since I was 18 years old and knowing the way business is conducted therein.

I've also been around Zendos since I was 18 years old from the Nikko Mountains to Indonesia. I've studied in Nichiren, Linji, and Shingon - eventually rejecting forms of Shingon-like esoterica and over time gravitating more and more to Samu (climbing, distance swimming, tightwire, and even digging and mopping very much playing into that..), but without entirely abandoning zazen even if chanting fell off the wagon along the way.

Largo: This way of seeking mentorship is the approach I took with climbing. When I decided to go for it, I went to Yosemite, sought out the Bridwell's and Donini's in Camp 4 and glommed on for dear life. Not saying this is the approach you or anyone else should take, but it's a common approach for ambitious people.

Glad to hear it. Studied mentorship was decidedly not the approach back in the hollers. And I'm most definitely not an "ambitious" person, but rather almost entirely curiosity-driven with little interest in driven-achievement or competition per se. Certainly none of my FAs have ever been about anything but absolute obsession with the aesthetics of, or movement on, a line. And, while I've done and put up plenty of difficult climbs, difficulty in and of itself has always held zero emotional, intellectual, or aesthetic appeal for me. Risk-taking (and risk management) on the other hand has always had some hold on me and it's really a solitary, unmentorable aspect of pure movement over stone from my perspective.

Largo: Ultimately, we are all self-taught in climbing and meditation since no one can do the practice for us. But having reliable folks on the other end of the rope has it's advantages without diluting the "discovery" process."

Yes and no. As you say, we are all ultimately self-taught and while there are times for teachers, many times the mere comfort of "reliable folks" is itself an obstacle to growth and their map, however 'proven', may or may not ultimately be yours. Also, 'starkness' - as in barren, harsh, desolate and having few or no ornaments - is often a very good a teacher. And as I said previously, all of this discussion plays heavily into why most of my climbing is free, lead rope soloing. Perhaps even more odd, it's also why I didn't and still don't use chalk as, when working on an FA, I emphatically don't want to lock into and follow even myself on subsequent attempts even if that ends up the result - in general I try pretty hard not to 'remember' my way up things. That, and I find the whole climb-by-the-dots thing somewhat mind-numbing and spoiling if not expressively somewhat reprehensible.

Largo: ...that doing it ALL yourself is the "purer" way is a common illusion and one of the first to be addressed in a Zendo.

I never said "purer" in any way or respect but only "different" ways and journeys. My father learned to fly in biplanes at the onset of WWII where most of the mentoring happened on the ground and one in four of them died in the process. It was a rapid and ruthless process of sorting out who had a 'feel' for it and who didn't (he lost two roommates over the span of weeks). Today's simulators, multi-engines, structured flight training, and highly restricted flight rules result in far fewer student pilot deaths, but ask my dad and he'll tell you how glad he is he didn't learn to fly in the way or in the world his sons did.

Largo: Then you're instructed to go sit and face the wall, where ironically you're left to work it out - by yourself. There's no other way.

As you say, ultimately there is no other way. And that raises an important point and that is 'learning to learn', which is a cumulative skill hopefully spanning a lifetime. As one grows and learns more about oneself it is hoped you take more and more responsibility for your own learning. Teachers and mentors can again play a role, but like the history and evolution of Buddhism itself wherein various 'masters' have struck out on their own to develop lineages based on interpretations more relevant to their lives, experience, and cultures, it is good and helpful to know when it's time to go one's own way. Sometimes the beta, however well it works for the person offering it or a thousand others, simply isn't how you are going to succeed at what lays before you.

Largo: The point being that I am not formulating my own take on how your are supposed to practice, only passing on the way things are commonly done by those who have made it their life work. As they say - take what you want, and leave the rest.

As I said in the previous post, making enlightenment my life's work is not my objective, making my moment-to-moment life more enlightened is - the distinction, as evoked in Samu, has become ever more important to me.

Largo: My point is vouchsafed by most every professional scientist you have ever known, few of whom will begrudge themselves for going to school and studying under acknowledged experts, and completing a scholastic curriculum, however grave and tedious. A dedicated student could possibly learn the same material on their own, but the scholastic path is surely more efficient - we can easily see why.

And still, sometimes the reverse is true: 16-year old invents cheap, accurate cancer test. Then there's Tom and I who do software. While I can't speak to Tom's experience, the field is notorious for it lack of structure, formal training, and mentorship. 'Hacking', as a mode of [continuous] learning is ever the norm and in fact necessary if you are really going to keep pace with technology. Some of the reason is simply the slow speed of speech - a week sitting in a classroom or seminar means you've basically lost forty hours of time you could have spent coding and prototyping your way through it and been way ahead in assimilating the material from where you'd be after a week of sitting and listening to someone talk.

From my perspective a lot of this stuff is about each of us unavoidably having our own journey. And a lot of it is also about differing enculturalization, inherent modus operandi, approach and style. We are clearly a very different people with very different takes on things, but it's all good from where I sit. I think where we differ is more around the interpretations and beliefs our experiences have led us to hold. I simply have no need of, and find the case less-than-compelling for, religion, panpsychism, various idealisms, universalities, souls, reincarnation, etc. to explain the unknown. You clearly hold different views and beliefs as does Werner, Go-B and everyone else here. I do, however, have to thank you for the ongoing tour of philosophy which has been quite interesting and educational.
Messages 12041 - 12060 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews