Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Werner, well done! That was a veritable dissertation compared to your usual fare.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
I wanted to ask Go-be.

You say you agree with everything Klimmer believes in, or says.
I think you would not agree with many of his beliefs, He is the one of the most egregious picker and choosers of what he thinks Christianity is and what the bible says.

He contends that the bible agrees with evolution, and that the earth is 4.8 billion years old.
That aliens are really Lucifer's armies, that will invade soon
That the bible has coded messages that predicted 911, the Bible code, which could be interpreted as occult.

There are many other examples, but I would say that you two are on different sides of the fence.

But my original point is valid, most Christians pick and choose what they like, and then cast accusations that most other Christians are Not true Christians, they are just fakers or misguided.


Dr. F,

Lot of misinformation there. I don't think all the Christian brothers and sisters on ST agree with me on everything, that's for sure. We do agree with the most important essential doctrine, how one gets saved through the redemptive blood of Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Messiah.

He is the one of the most egregious picker and choosers of what he thinks Christianity is and what the bible says.


Really??? Wow. That's harsh coming from an atheist who doesn't know the word of G-d. There is deep revelation and learning going on right now in Christendom. Things we never understood before are now being revealed. The Good Book said this would happen near the end of this age.There are many who are coming to agreement in Christendom.

He contends that the bible agrees with evolution, and that the earth is 4.8 billion years old.

Yes, Theistic Evolution and The Gap Theory. The Bible does say the Earth is old. The Good Book and the Books of Enoch also explain a Day can mean 12 hours, 24 hours, 1000 years, an incredible amount of long time (millions or billions of years), or as the 8th day age, no more time -- eternity. Read 2Enoch, and 3Enoch. I gree with the geologic record, 4.56 Billion years old. The Sun is about 5 billion. The Universe is about 13.7 billion.


That aliens are really Lucifer's armies, that will invade soon



Yes, many Christians are waking to this reality. The evidence is overwhelming that ET/Aliens are here, but they aren't who they say they are. That isn't surprising. Lucifer is the Father of lies. Yeshua said, "As The Days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man." Noah's days were filled with Fallen Angels mating with beautiful Earthly women and having off-spring called Nephilim. When Nephilim die they become demons. ET/Aliens are Fallen Angels 2.0. Yeshua told us this would happen.


That the bible has coded messages that predicted 911,

There are many. Prove me wrong. You can't explain it. It's beyond scientific statistical chance. G-d is omnipotent and you fail to see this. He tells us what's going to happen before it happens. It's called prophecy. It's also validation that his word is true and inspired.








the Bible code, which could be interpreted as occult.


So now you're calling Kabalism a sect of Judaism that is thousands of years old -- occult? Wasn't that the same arguments that the Pharisees used against Yeshua HaMashiach? That he performed miracles of healing and he could cast out devils by calling on Satan/Lucifer? It's been proven for a very long time that indeed the word of G-d has patterns of numerology beyond scientific statistical chance long before Bible Code was ever discovered. Bible Code is a modern day discovery since the advent of the personal computer. Sir Isaac Newton knew the Bible had a code, but he couldn't prove it in his day.

Don't call Good, evil, and evil, Good.


But my original point is valid, most Christians pick and choose what they like, and then cast accusations that most other Christians are Not true Christians, they are just fakers or misguided.

That's a very wide, broad brush you're using there. We can correct one another, the Good Book says to do so when we are mistaken. We learn from one another. We aren't supposed to judge. Judgement is a final call concerning the fate of a human soul. Only G-d has the authority to do so. A human soul's fate can occur right at the very last possible second before they lose their life. You can never know. Think of the thief on the cross next to Yeshua. He was saved right there at the very last possible moment at the very end. We can be fruit inspectors. We can know when someone is fallen away from the Lord and they need help to get back.

Just because Christians may differ on points of doctrine, we are still saved through Yeshua HaMashiach. We are still brothers and sisters in Adonai (The Lord).
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 31, 2012 - 02:23am PT
Back to psylocybin and the article MH2 cites. For me, the most interesting ideas were at the end and seem to apply to both psychedelics and meditation. To quote the authors of that article,

"........... I do think the idea that psilocybin permits an “unconstrained style of cognition” is an intriguing one. As discussed in my previous article there is a strong association between the personality trait absorption and the degree to which a person experiences alterations in consciousness under psilocybin (Studerus, Gamma, Kometer, & Vollenweider, 2012).

Absorption is associated with a tendency to have unusual ideas and loose associations, suggesting that high absorption is associated with a style of cognition that is much less constrained than that of the average person. Additionally, one study of volunteers who had never taken psychedelic drugs before found that volunteers who experienced a profound mystical experience under psilocybin underwent a long-term increase in openness to experience (MacLean, Johnson, & Griffiths, 2011), a personality trait closely related to absorption. This suggests that for some people, taking psilocybin could lead to a lasting change in their cognitive style, perhaps related to the intensely “unconstrained” style experienced under psilocybin."
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 31, 2012 - 04:25am PT
...could lead to a lasting change in their cognitive style...

Thank goodness. I'd have been dead a long, long time ago otherwise.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 08:00am PT
Go-be
another thing
Klimmer turned into a Jew, and now worships someone named Yeshua HaMashiach?

He could be worshipping false idols, how can you tell?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 08:06am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
The bible was Not written in English,
and all you have to do is change the margins one letter wider or narrower, and everything changes.

The bible code is about as trustworthy as numerology, and would be considered occult by most Christians
MH2

climber
Dec 31, 2012 - 09:14am PT
The study I chose as an example of neuron-level effects of psilocybin has a sober take on the potential for such drugs to affect behavior, too.


Psychedelic hallucinogens are potent agonists at the 5-HTsub2A receptor in the cortex and produce a psychotic syndrome in healthy controls, which in some respects is comparable to that seen in acutely ill patients with schizophrenia (for further discussion of the controversial issues in this comparison, see Gouzoulis-Mayfrank et al., 1998). The effects of hallucinogens, such as psilocybin, included disturbances of spatial and temporal perception, deficits in working and short-term memory, and cognitive dysfunction affecting judgement, planning, and mental flexibility (Gouzoulis-Mayfrank et al., 1999).

Gouzoulis-Mayfrank E, Habermeyer E, Hermle L, Steinmeyer AM, Kunert HJ, Sass H (1998) Hallucinogenic drug induced states resemble acute endogenous psychoses: results of an empirical study. Eur Psychiat 13:399-406.

Gouzoulis-Mayfrank E, Thelen B, Habermeyer E, Kunert HJ, Kovar KA, Lindenblatt H, Hermle L, Spitzer M, Sass H. (1999) Psychopathological, neuroendocrine and autonomic effects of 3,4-methylene-dioxyethyl-amphetamine (MDE), psilocybin and d-methamphetamine in healthy volunteers. Results of an experimental double-blind placebo-controlled study. Psychopharmacology 142:41-50.


The potential role of 5-HTsub2A receptor stimulation as a marker of novelty is further supported by the rapid desensitization of the receptor under normal conditions (Aghajanian and Marek, 1997) and by the perturbations of cognition and behavior which result from the persistent activation of 5-HTsub2A receptors by psychedelic hallucinogens.

Aghajanian GK, Marek GJ (1997) Serotonin induces excitatory postsynaptic potentials in apical dendrites of neocortical pyramidal cells. Neuropharmacology 36:589-599.



quotes from

Lambe EK, Goldman-Rakic PS, Aghajanian GK (2000) Serotonin induces EPSCs preferentially in layer V pyramidal neurons of the frontal cortex in the rat. Cereb. Cortex 10:974-980.
MH2

climber
Dec 31, 2012 - 09:33am PT
Alphabet soup

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9754838


I really like "Oceanic Boundlessness." And that someone would have the temerity to come up with a measure for it. But where did they get the acronym OSE for it? German?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:02am PT
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 08:00am PT
Go-be
another thing
Klimmer turned into a Jew, and now worships someone named Yeshua HaMashiach?

He could be worshipping false idols, how can you tell?


Dr.F,

For having a PhD you're not very smart at times and very condescending. "Jesus Christ" is a made-up Anglo-Saxon protestant name and as the Western World knows him, but his actual Hebrew name is phonetically Yeshua. It means salvation. Mary's Hebrew name was actually Miryam, not Mary. Joseph's Hebrew name is actually Yosef, phonetically. When they called their son to dinner they would have said "Y-E-S-H-U-A it's dinner time!" but in Hebrew or Aramaic. They would not have said "Jesus." HaMashiach is phonetic Hebrew and it means "The Messiah." It's called getting back to the roots of the faith. Many throughout Christendom are doing so. It's happening the World over and you can't stop it. Many Christians eventually take a class on Hebrew. Very good thing to do. I have the opportunity to do so soon, and will probably do so.

Read The Complete Jewish Bible and you will get re-educated very quickly. By the way, David Stern the translator, was a SoCal Jew, Surfer and climber from UCLA, before he moved to Israel with his family.







Perhaps Isaiah 53 Bible Code might be a little more meaningful now ...

"Yeshua is my name"







Klimmer turned into a Jew,



That sounds more than a little anti-Semitic. Careful.


I can't turn into a Jew anymore than I can turn into someone of Japanese descent, or Chinese, or Hawaiian, or Native North American. You either are genetically or you're not. Yes, I had my DNA done through 23andMe.com and also FamilyTreeDNA.com

Yes, it turns out I'm about 11% Ashkenazi Jewish. Pretty cool. My mother's mother looked Jewish but she never said she was. She really never talked about her ancestry other than being from Mayo County Ireland (Yep, I'm Irish too). However, I was attending a Messianic Synagogue before I ever got the idea to test my DNA. But when I did, voila! I'm part Jewish.


“Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”

― Albert Einstein, The World as I See It
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:21am PT
The bible was Not written in English,
and all you have to do is change the margins one letter wider or narrower, and everything changes.

The bible code is about as trustworthy as numerology, and would be considered occult by most Christians



True the Bible was not written in English, but don't you think Adonai knew it would be and he guided that process, especially the KJV knowing that it would have historic significance?


“Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”

― Albert Einstein, The World as I See It



No, its not about margins. It's about ELS (Equal Letter Skip) sequence. Get a copy of Michael Drosnin's first book. The scientific paper that was published in a peer reviewed Math journal is in full in the appendix.



The bible code is about as trustworthy as numerology, and would be considered occult by most Christians

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. Read Michael Drosnin's 3rd book on Bible Code, and you will find out our USA military intelligence and Israel's are working together cooperatively with Bible Code, and think they have determined where Weapons of Mass Destruction will be hidden on a certain date. These would be nuclear in nature. Yes, Drosnin spills the beans that even our intelligence community knows about Bible Code and uses it. It's real.

Most Christians don't know a lot of things and are unwilling to go very deep into their faith, into the deep secret things that reveal the Glory of G-d. Some do.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:29am PT
We do agree with the most important essential doctrine, how one gets saved through the redemptive blood of Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Messiah.

YUP!

Just like there are different names for snow, so does GOD and JESUS!
http://bible.org/article/names-god
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Yeshua/yeshua.html

Truth will be stranger than fiction...

Matthew 24:26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

...makes you wonder...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#281401

...God does work in mysterious ways...

Acts 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. 2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread. 4 So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.
5 Peter was therefore kept in prison, but constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church. 6 And when Herod was about to bring him out, that night Peter was sleeping, bound with two chains between two soldiers; and the guards before the door were keeping the prison. 7 Now behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the prison; and he struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, “Arise quickly!” And his chains fell off his hands. 8 Then the angel said to him, “Gird yourself and tie on your sandals”; and so he did. And he said to him, “Put on your garment and follow me.” 9 So he went out and followed him, and did not know that what was done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision. 10 When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him.

11 And when Peter had come to himself, he said, “Now I know for certain that the Lord has sent His angel, and has delivered me from the hand of Herod and from all the expectation of the Jewish people.”



I haven't seen an angel that I was aware of, but I know God answered our prayers for our little angel granddaughter's two heart surgery's!
Thank You God!!!

Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 10:31am PT
Take it easy there big fella
I was just trolling

But the truth is Go-be was way off in saying that you two are on the same page
Go-be is a fundamentalist Christian, he believes the literal translation of the bible
You translate the bible to fit your belief system.

why would God care whose blood you were saved by?

Hasn't Jesus been dead for 2000 years?, so his blood is long gone.
Sounds like a false idol to me.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:39am PT
Astonishing.

How we humans and our thinking are just all over the map now. On the one hand we have Klimmer and his ilk, Klimmer above referencing Adonai and The Bible Code, lol; meanwhile, here is Robert Wright (I'm a fan)...

http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/14010?in=48:43&out=59:03

discussing brains in a vat (a neuroelectronics concept), nodes in a global brain, and how much we ought to let ourselves plug into it, convergence of technologies, etc..

The curious mind can't help but wonder how it's all going to sort out, lol!

.....

Yeah, that's the ticket: a brain in a vat. Now if only we had the software and the interface technology I could live my life in any of countless simulations of my choosing. One day I could be a simulation of Hawkeye (you know the hero from Last of the Mohicans), a simple life, short but adventurous, no nursing home in my future; on another day and in another simulation, I could even be Joseph Smith, a Mormon (Go figure!) to witness the Second Coming of Jesus in Missouri. No, scratch that one. How about... some Hugh Hefner simulation?

"Is there an app for that?" :)
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
Tel Motza Discovery: Temple And Ritual Vessels Of Cult From King David Era Found Near Jerusalem (PHOTOS)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/27/tel-motza-discovery-temple-ritual-vessels-king-david_n_2370656.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl35%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D251033
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
I can't resist
Happy New Years

Credit: Dr. F.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 31, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
That photo is one of my favorites.
Happy New Years everybody!

Some plants appear psychedelic to everyone,
without drugs.

So what is normal anyway?

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 31, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Jan, Happy New Year! :)

One more turn around our very own star, how amazing!!!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
Apparently, the bible code can predict everything after it has happened
WBraun

climber
Dec 31, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
One predict what's gonna happen in this thread without any book ..... :-)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 1, 2013 - 07:49am PT
re: changing narratives

Right now, who could deny that we are living in an epoch where the narrative is changing.

"Tell me a fact and I'll learn. Tell me a truth and I'll believe. But tell me a story and it will live in my heart forever."

Which means it's quite a challenging time. Individually. Socially.

But I believe in time this too will sort out.
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