Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 11961 - 11980 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Bruce,

why can't you just accept that those who having nothing of their own to add to the discussion are the ones who sit in the bleachers and make up stuff to criticize?

shame on you for not seeing this....
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Yes you're right. I will now go thrash myself with a cat o nine tails for my impertinence.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
I thought this was for fun
Are you telling that This IS serious!!!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
perhaps we could catalog what we know about the world:

1. what we are pretty sure about, based upon repeatable empirical observations, such as published in peer-reviewed scientific journals (oops, occasionally proven incorrect even so...)...not so sure just how large is this subset, but many people seem to try and stay in this bubble of certainty

2. where our levels of certainty are subject to intelligent debate...seems to be a large subset representing the majority of this thread

3. where we really know we don't know and are struggling to imagine what is going on based upon an available variety of observations...

my experience has been that the more i study 1. and 2., the more gets pushed off into 3.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
my experience has been that the more i study 1. and 2., the more gets pushed off into 3.

more useless Mental Speculation

you should go visit the Man in the Cave for Enlightenment............
jstan

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Why the need to dominate politically?

George Carlin may have had that answer.

$
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
perhaps you can enlighten us with a short summary of certainties
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
my criticism of the "spiritualists" is that they often want the validity of a "physical" existence of their spiritual universe, the fact that it is subjective seems to rank it as something less than the cold hard facts of the physical universe.


I don't know any spiritualist (but plenty of religios) that are looking for "valitity." For what? But the biggest mistake in this belief is that all spirituality is "subjective," an error pf perception I have repeatedly gone out of my way to correct, but which is perfectly in keeping with a materialist view because it artificially reduces infinite qualities to blowback from a material brain = subjective imaginings about what is in fact NOT THERE (not material).

--------

why all this concern over Largo's musings, what I've seen is that he has not proposed "an answer" to these conundrums because he hasn't one to propose, not for want of a lifetime of trying... his major criticism of the science types is that they purport to have an explanation, "SCIENCE!", but then fail to deliver the goods...


I don't really have a "major criticism" about science. I've said such a stance is ridiculous. What rankles people is that I don not collapse the subjective and objective into the same qualitative "things," that is I don't say that a basketball and the perception of the color red are qualitatively the same. Likewise, I don't have to believe fantastic ideas like studying objective functioning is in fact studying subjectivity. To me, that's like saying because Craig came from his parents, I can study Craig's dad and am in fact studying Craig. So long as science sticks to the cold hard facts, which are maps that work and are viable to our evaluating mind, then I'll all for it. I don't have to expect more from science that what it is build to deliver - which is precisely discrete that which we can metabolize with our rational minds. I also know that so long as yo have no experiences of watching your rational mind, you ARE that part, and nothing about anything beyond will make any sense at all.

Of course what Ed means by "an answer" is something that he can wrangle with his rational mind, a discrete thing, a function to measure - any damn thing that he can point to and say - THERE!

But there is nothing in the spiritual literature that says any such "thing" is there. So no such answer is forthcoming.

The question is: If spirituality is about truth, and not subjective states or subjective content in any way shape or form, and likewise it is not objective, or a string of facts and figures about discrete "things," that means it is not content at all. What is left?

That's your answer, Ed, but you already decided beforehand what a viable answer MUST be (a measurable "thing" or perceivable thing), meaning you are only wiling to do science on the subject of spirituality. I remember the last Matsumi Roshi used to handle these types with a simple koan: do science on the truly basic question: Who am I?

Have at it.


JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
What is left?

Nothing

It's all about trying to make something out of nothing

Someone has a transcendental experience (inside his mind), communes with the great nothingness, comes out of it and says there is something out there

We ask what it was?, the answer "nothing"
what did you experience? "a warm fuzzy feeling"


so the answer really is, there is nothing more out there, and when you have a transcendental experience, you will get a warm fuzzy feeling, and you won't be able to talk about it because all you really experienced was nothing

This is why Largo can't tell us what it is.
but instead, he says it's right brain oriented, it doesn't have any edges for our brain to grasp, it's just out of reach, you didn't do it right, you have to work in the opposite direction of thought and logic
"Dr. F, your mind just isn't up for the task, you're not spiritual enough, you want answers, you want a thing, it is not a thing"

Correct: that's what I say, it's nothing... which means it does NOT Exist, there is nothing there, nothing is Not something

And some folks are looking for every way possible to circumnavigate accountability, science and questions.


Maybe Largo and Jan just haven't made the next step, to realize that nothing means nothing, like us Atheists.
They do not want to let go of their most cherished belief, "God"
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 22, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
It's all about trying to make something out of nothing


You've answered your own question - that is exactly what YOU are trying to do - make some "Thing," some discrete, recognizable stuff out of "no thing."

You'll never manage it. Your mistake is to apply a discursive mind take on "nothing" which will invariably render you a circular search of looking for what is not there in the form that your mind can see and evaluate.

But it is just this evaluating mind that is blocking your way to seeing beyond, into the unborn. So long as you're searching for a thing, an entity, some stuff, you'll come up empty handed. You have to bore into nothing - and see.

In Zen parlance, nothing/emptiness is the big question. It is not objective or subjective - these are human terms having to do with human perception and brain processing.

As I've said, the point here is close to what science does - not so much to understand, but to work up a model, even if it's Hilbert Space, that can render results. So the point is not to work up an answer for the rational mind (always looking for something), but to get spirituality to work for you.

As mentioned, its not for everyone, and IME, those lacking an almost deadly
skepticism get nowhere.

JL
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 22, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
(Thread) Insanity: [Saying] the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

A. Einstein


;>\
jstan

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
I have heard of one study that compared the perception people of different ages have for elapsed time. They found that older people tend to feel time is going slower than it is. And so they tend to feel that time is going faster and faster; a common perception. Our ability as organisms to sense the passage of time implies we have embedded within us fairly good clocks; clocks that can function even without reference to the sun's progression.

While this is not entirely unexpected, it is really interesting. And suggestive.
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
Dr. F....if by "warm fuzzy feelings" you mean communicating with alien entities, becoming everything, or transcending time and space, then yeah. Warm Fuzzy Feelings :-)
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
That is exactly what I mean when I use the words
"a warm fuzzy feeling"
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 22, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
The warm and fuzzy feeling of certainty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certainty



We have a missing link between scientific observation and objective spiritualism. That link was severed by the Bolsheviks when they enlisted old Pavlov and Wundt to prove that men were nothing but dogs and God had no part in it obviously. Otherwise a wise and loving creator would stop their hands as they slaughter and enslaved their fellow humans.

But that is a bitter view.


I like to have the positive view that in a hundred years or two we'll all have this figured out and everyone will be able to observe, understand and use the spiritual powers they already have.


It is a pleasure to bat this all around with some pretty intelligent skeptics in this forum.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.



There is no link

Humans have been looking for the link for 60,000 years

They never found it, so instead, they pretend it exists

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 22, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
Now, you don't know they haven't found it.


Maybe Neandertals found it. If you believe the brain theory, the should have been smarter with an extra 1.5 cubic inches of brain on average. Then a band of early Republicans lynched them.


There could be whole crowds of people doing magical stuff.


You are just not hanging with the right people.



Your cactus' have united and subverted your free will. You only work to support them. The rest is an illusion.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
They can post up right now, and tell us what they found

we have many people here that say they found something, but won't describe it when put under the simple pressure of actually writing it out in words that we can agree upon that are factual

And you are wrong about illusion, I live under no illusions, that is what being a "Skeptic" is all about, no illusions nor delusions
Those cactus spines will penetrate your skin no matter what Matrix you believe in
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 22, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
Personally I don't need any answers and don't expect to find them here. My own quest is described by the title of one of Chogyam Trungpa's books, Journey without Goal. Either I will go to sleep at the end and be oblivious or there is something else out there. I'm ok with either one. Then again, I've already lived a long and privileged life compared to most people on this planet and I was fortunate to live in a time when many possibilities all over the planet were open to me. I am acutely aware however, that most others are not so fortunate and need the comfort that religion provides.

Part of our confusion I believe, is that Largo is talking about a form of spirituality that few attain. The rest of us have been dealing with intermediate experiences. Perhaps this is the difference between the soul which most of us have felt, and the spirit which most of us have only read about. To get to the spirit, one has to purify the soul and that is absolutely the opposite of warm fuzzies. The idea that spirituality is about warm fuzzies is either ignorance of the process or simply a way to write it all off as inconsequential.

As for whether Dr. F. is left or right brain, the answer is both are well developed, but they are not integrated at all. He is either being wholly one or the other at any given time. Compartmentalization is one life strategy, particularly when society's rewards are almost all in the left brain direction (professional athletes, artists and musicians are few and far between). If he's managing to make money off of his cactii, then that's one way he's integrating the two domains and I congratulate him.

As for the spiritual trying to fit their world into the physical, I believe that it may yet fit but that we aren't there yet, it is as Tom suggests, already fully integrated (my own philosophy also), and that for sure in sociological terms, the desire to reconcile them is because of the relentless pressure the scientific, technological, impersonal world with the power of capitalism behind it, has put on every other aspect of life.

Spiritual and religious people feel backed into an increasingly small corner (not small enough according to most people on this thread), and yes, many are reacting irrationally trying to defend some small part of the non materialistic world. Go to Florence or go to Kyoto and walk around. Then drive through an American strip mall and feel the difference. If you say they are the same and reflect the same inner qualities, then I will say you are a person who has truly lost your soul.


cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 22, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
The problem with spirituality is that there is no worldwide consensus on its particulars. Attempts to reconcile all the mystical traditions that have sprung up over the millenia have failed, because they're all culture-bound products of overactive imaginations, spinning off in a thousand different directions from the basic impulse of wishing for something more than the humdrum evidences of materialism. So the true believers can ride their blinkered hobby-horses, and the more meta-inclined can reel off their peculiarly distilled grammars of abracadabra, but apart from forming a united front against non-belief, they rarely agree on anything specific, and they don't want to talk about that. Meanwhile, back in the humdrum, there's really a lot of amazing quantifiable stuff going on. But to each their own.

[And Jan, that's a pretty selective comparison. There are plenty of spiritual communities in the U.S. where you can practically cut the patchouli with a knife, if you know what I mean. :-) ]
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