Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:07am PT
there will be great famines and disease. Our population growth is out of control, and in 100 years it will be impossible to feed everyone. Natural resources will become scarce. The rich will wall themselves off from the poor mobs...

Yeah, this is an example point on our evolutionary trajectory where I'd like to be around to have a further discussion with MH2.

Esp concerning what I consider MH2's enabling attitude (cf: enablers, enabling attitudes around drug addicts, food addicts, that sabatage aims, progress) regarding science illiteracy, apathy or insouciance regarding others acquiring a science education as civic responsibility, etc.

.....

Speaking of narratives (a couple pages back), what sorts of cultural narratives will our world and our descendants be living under 100 and 500 years from now? Will they be rich, storied, in old-world fantasies (for their easy escapist, motivating attributes) or will they be science-based, ecologically responsible, truth-seeking and such? That's also what I'd like to witness develop.

As our fossil fuels run dry, it's going to force relocalization norms, schemes, practices, cultures and their narratives - provincial and specialized. It's going to force us to turn away from large scale, multinational projects. There won't be as many "Think globally" imperatives,mantras, initiatives. Spacefaring comes to mind. So does the hunt for killer asteroids and the work to eliminate them. 500 years from now, this might not be so easy insofar as the whole world's broken up into "relocalization" cultures each employing its own short-term, narrow-minded, partisan narrative that only works for them provincially.

.....

re: the decline of violence
re: misleading ways to think about violence

Steven Pinker, on CNN

"As horrific as the Newtown tragedy was, you gotta remember there were 27 people killed (in Newtown). Every day in the United States, 45 people are killed. So the tragedy happened on a certain day of the week, the next day 45 more people were killed, the day after 45 more people were killed. Day after day after day. You don't have round the clock coverage of those 45 murders that take place every day in the United States. And to concentrate all of our violence reduction efforts on the most unpredictable, the hardest to control, the craziest incidents is, I think, a mis-allocation of resources. Yes we should try to figure out how to minimize them but if we really want to keep most people from being killed it's the wrong place to obsess."

http://cnnradio.cnn.com/2012/12/21/cnn-profiles-newtown-and-the-decline-of-violence/

....

A future Christmas time irony...

When Earth's oil diminishes and the price of other fuels rises, then naughty children will thank Santa for giving them a lump of coal. :)
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
I think it is important to learn as much as you can about what you do and beyond!
I did study and became a Certified Arborist, and there right and wrong ways to prune and maintain trees.
Plus rock climbing relates to climbing trees by trusting your equipment, rigging branches down, and not being scared of heights.

Jesus knows a thing or two about pruning...

John 15:15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
Go-B,

There is nothing inferior about being an arborist. I don't know how to do it. You may be the only arborist here. So now we get to ask you a bunch of questions.

Seriously. You probably enjoy your work, you seem very happy, and you aren't building better bombs like all of my engineer friends ended up doing.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Happy Bearthday Jesus!

go-B ur use of the Verses is impeccable!
That last one is a True Blessing..

God Bless You All!
and
Merry Christmas Brothers & Sisters

Jus Be'in Thankful
BB
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
Back at you BB, and Merry CHRIST-mas everybody!
Thx BASE, but I think I can't touch what Dr. F. can do with his cacti!!!
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 25, 2012 - 06:15am PT
Angels We Have Heard on High

Angels we have heard on high
Sweetly singing o'er the plains,
And the mountains in reply
Echoing their joyous strains.
Gloria, in excelsis Deo!
Gloria, in excelsis Deo!
("Glory to God in the highest")

Shepherds, why this jubilee?
Why your joyous strains prolong?
Say what may the tidings be
Which inspire your heavenly song?
Gloria, in excelsis Deo!
Gloria, in excelsis Deo!

Come to Bethlehem and see
Christ Whose birth the angels sing;
Come, adore on bended knee,
Christ the Lord, the newborn King.
Gloria, in excelsis Deo!
Gloria, in excelsis Deo!

See Him in a manger laid,
Whom the choirs of angels praise;
Mary, Joseph, lend your aid,
While our hearts in love we raise.
Gloria, in excelsis Deo!
Gloria, in excelsis Deo!

Angels We Have Heard on High - Andrea Bocelli and David Foster


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Merry CHRIST-mas!
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
that's nothing new for the Church, it takes advantage of Christianizing local non-christian festivities appropriated into various Church celebrations...

What is referred to here is actually a cultural dynamic that predates Christianity.

The Roman themselves appropriated Greek mythology with a few local twists and tweaks.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_religion..

In a broader context the appropriation of one cultural/religious form by a more dominant one has been going on since the development of agriculture, and perhaps longer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation

The appropriation of pagan forms and rituals by Christianity simply points to the domination and subsequent assimilation of these pagan customs in an era of Christian hegemony, and not to some inherent contradiction in Christianity itself, or as a doctrinal deviation, claimed by Christian themselves - as we have seen in the Puritan attitude referenced. The Puritans were in general the benefactors of this Christian hegemony, as well as its victims. After arriving in the new world they then commenced to practice their own version of it, in ways other than Christmas. Puritans simply would not play ball in the usual cultural /religious modus vivendi
way.



This dynamic, multifaceted process of cultural assimilation can even perhaps cut both ways :

Cultural appropriation has also been seen as a site of resistance to dominant society when members of a marginalized group take and alter aspects of dominant culture to assert their agency and resistance. This is exemplified in the novel Crick Crack, Monkey by Merle Hodge when those who are colonized appropriate the culture of the colonizers. Another historical example were the Mods in the UK in the 1960s, working class youth who appropriated and exaggerated the highly tailored clothing of the upper middle class.
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation

The nature and form that Christmas has historically assumed is more than just the work of Christian culture, it may even be partly driven by a sub-dominant reassertion by the marginalized pagan minority.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 25, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
re: distinguishing between first nature & second nature & third nature



Right now we might be living (struggling) through a new phase in the Civilizing Process.

First nature - the evolved motives that govern life in a state of nature.

Second nature - the ingrained habits of a civilized society.

Third nature - the conscious reflection on these habits, in which we evaluate which aspects of a culture’s norms are worth adhering to and which have outlived their usefulness.

Centuries ago our ancestors may have had to squelch all signs of spontaneity and individuality in order to civilize themselves, but now that norms of nonviolence, ways of being, etc. are entrenched, we can let up on particular inhibitions that may be obsolete.

In this way of thinking, the fact that women show a lot of skin or that men curse in public or that your dinner partner uses a knife to push peas onto his fork is not a sign of cultural decay. On the contrary, it’s a sign that they live in a society that is so civilized that they don’t have to fear being harassed or assaulted in response.

So get your "third nature" on! :)



Adapted: Steven Pinker, The Better Angels of our Nature
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 25, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
that's better Donald...

It's Christmas, I have time, what can I say

Don't think I 'm a-gonna start doing all your research for you from now on.

Here's the formula:

I make the assertions and you do the research..

I am the creative brilliant guy , you are the research Sherpa. Lol.

Happy Holidays. The very best to you and your's.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 26, 2012 - 10:04am PT
re: Why bad things happen

A great principle of moral advancement, on a par with “Love thy neighbor” and “All men are created equal,” is the one on the bumper sticker: “Sh#t happens.”

Steven Pinker

.....

Atheist Census. Even though I've moved beyond the atheism-theism ying and yang cycle of tedium, I'm counted. Are you?

http://www.atheistcensus.com/

.....

For fun, I digress...
On 25 October 1668 Pepys was surprised by his wife whilst embracing Deb Willet: he writes that his wife "coming up suddenly, did find me imbracing the girl con [with] my hand sub [under] su [her] coats; and endeed I was with my main [hand] in her cunny. I was at a wonderful loss upon it and the girl also...."

Samuel Pepys (peeps) is now most famous for the diary he kept for a decade while still a relatively young man.

.....

Daniel Dennett at his best...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUeQXmYVamA
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:32am PT
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

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1 Corinthians 1:29 so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
MH2

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:52am PT









http://hootingyard.org/
Psilocyborg

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:48am PT
Credit: Psilocyborg
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
Want still more evidence to the validity of the adage, Choose your battles carefully, then watch...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z99IjOUj7x4

This internet-driven info age has changed everything.

Everything!
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Everything!

Well, the last time I checked two-step German polkas are the same.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:40pm PT

Here, you'll love this one...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekc2Nn03IVM#!

.....

re: beliefs

Now tell me if this doesn't hit the nail on the head.

"A broader danger of unverifiable beliefs is the temptation to defend them by violent means. People become wedded to their beliefs, because the validity of those beliefs reflects on their competence, commends them as authorities, and rationalizes their mandate to lead. Challenge a person’s beliefs, and you challenge his dignity, standing, and power. And when those beliefs are based on nothing but faith, they are chronically fragile. No one gets upset about the belief that rocks fall down as opposed to up, because all sane people can see it with their own eyes. Not so for the belief that babies are born with original sin or that God exists in three persons.... When people organize their lives around these beliefs, and then learn of other people who seem to be doing just fine without them—or worse, who credibly rebut them—they are in danger of looking like fools. Since one cannot defend a belief based on faith by persuading skeptics it is true, the faithful are apt to react to unbelief with rage, and may try to eliminate that affront to everything that makes their lives meaningful."

Steven Pinker

.....

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In this day and age especially, you just can't be an intellectually respectable person and deny it. "It" being either evolution, for instance, or the claim that today's "sophisticated theologians" are just spinning words or making shi't up.

Mommas, don't let your babies grow up to be theologians!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
OK. I edited this to clean it up a little.

There is one side of the coin that says non science people just don't understand the depth of knowledge that we now have. We can also guess how much knowledge that we don't have, and that's a lot.

It is another thing altogether to be willfully ignorant. I thought BB was just talking religion until he said that St. Helens vented 100 times more CO2 than man, which is absolutely untrue. Humans are producing CO2 at a hundred times the rate of ALL volcanoes.

And how did he get on a climate rant in a religious debate? It is because fundamentalist religion doesn't just rag on evolution, it rags on any science that the political right wing hates, which is most science, face it. Right wing politics is either taught at church or is endemic to those who attend the fundamentalist literalist churches.

Seriously, BB. It took me one minute on Google to discover not only St. Helens' CO2 discharge, but the dicharge of all volcanoes relative to the dicharge caused by burning fossil fuels, which is truly massive. That is known, because the amount of fossil fuels that humanity uses is known among all OECD countries. Look it up at the Energy Information Administration which is used worldwide as the CIA of energy statistics.

The volcano/vs human CO2 emissions is here:

Department of Energy's Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC) website (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/); helps anyone armed with a handheld calculator and a high school chemistry text put the volcanic CO2 tally into perspective. Because while 200 million tonnes of CO2 is large, the global fossil fuel CO2 emissions for 2003 tipped the scales at 26.8 billion tonnes. Thus, not only does volcanic CO2 not dwarf that of human activity, it actually comprises less than 1 percent of that value.

CO2 and SO2 emissions from volcanoes has been studied long before any serious global warming work was around. It can help understand the source of magma, the type of release, and a lot of general info on studying volcanoes generally. So it has always been very important to vulcanologists.

So imagine St. Helens. Then imagine every volcano on Earth. Multiply that by 100, and you get the human CO2 release. You said that the St. Helens eruption was massive, so just imagine that massive amount of CO2 going into the atmosphere by humans. You can't see it coming out of the exhaust pipe. If the gas were purple, you would understand the problem well. The sky would be turning a weak purple.

Seriously. It took me one minute to find that data from the USGS, an impartial observer. You didn't even look, but spouted propaganda. This makes you willfully ignorant, and if you held any form of ideas subject to peer review, as scientists are, you would have got your ass handed to you, figuratively speaking, and quite quickly. You would have never been published in the first place. You have to understand peer review to know why. I can explain how it works if you like.

There is a big difference between plain ignorance, which we all have, and willful ignorance, such as you have. Willful ignorance is where you don't learn on purpose. In my mind, willful ignorance is pretty bad, but when you start posting information drawn from that willful ignorance, you are doing actual harm.

My job is to find hydrocarbons. It has been my entire professional life for almost 30 years. They are nasty, but we tend to look at it from a common sense resource availability problem and generally plead with the public to stop wasting the precious stuff. It is becoming obvious that the cheap hydrocarbons have mostly been found, and that means that the increasing population is going to meet the decreasing hydrocarbon production in the next 20 to 50 years, and prices will skyrocket. Of course, oil companies will be blamed for this, but it is simply supply and demand. Oil is traded all over the world, and price is not set by the largest oil companies. They don't control enough of the resource to control price.

The Energy Information Administration has more statistics on Energy than you could read in 6 months. Like I said, it is the CIA of energy, and the data is of high quality. I have never even seen the data questioned. Oil and gas futures prices use this data, and the whole industry makes price forecasts from the data to plan their annual drilling programs.

Do not be willfully ignorant. Google is good, but you need to find a good source, like the USGS. It isn't that hard, and if anyone else pulls this crap, beware, because I know this stuff and will remind you of your error.

I was an as#@&%e to Go-B over mathematics. I'm very sorry of that. He is a nice guy and works at a needed occupation. All work is honorable, as my dad taught me. Nobody is bettern than another, but we all have our areas of expertise.

Go-B, I'm having problems with my peach trees producing so much fruit that the limbs break. I know I am going to have to trim the limbs back, but what is the best time of year, Go-B. I excuse you if you don't live in a peach state.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 27, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
Quick answer, prune your Peach in late winter after last frost!



Pruning Peach Trees
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/422/422-020/422-020.html

The California Backyard Orchard
http://homeorchard.ucdavis.edu/The_Big_Picture/




Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
Thanks for the info Base

100+ to 1
anyone can understand that
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
See? Ask an expert in their field and thy shall receive.

I shall prune back the limbs as instructed. Seriously, I have been in peach orchards, where they prune the limbs back enourmously. There are a bunch of new shoots that come out that are filled with fruit. And they don't split down the middle.

I have seen the pruned trees. I ask an authority and now I know how to do it. So Go-B made me a little wiser about things, and I am happy to get the info.

That is how knowledge works. Go-B might not realize it, but his skill has huge economic implications. Dealing with fruit or other types of fruit trees is what puts fruit in our grocery stores.

Go-B. Go research all kinds of trees and write a book called "Tree care for dumbies." You will get rich and be able to hire the rest of us.

That is how it works. It has nothing to do with that now ugly word, "Elite."
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