Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 11921 - 11940 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
All the cartoons, YouTube links, Wiki's, Quoates; Seem like commercials:

They all feel like someone is trying to sell something.

Whats the difference of that, and what go-B got banished for?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
So here we are shouting at each other across a chasm as large as the Grand Canyon. In the meantime I can say I've learned a lot about science and the scientific mind set in the process, but I don't think much has been learned about the spiritual world view.



Maybe its cuz there aint nothing to learn?


HAHAHA! Sorry bout that. It was like low hanging fruit just begging for the plucking.

But seriously don't you think there might be a glimmer of truth to it? I mean at least science has a system of proven learning that results in tangible realities that lead us deeper into the complexities of this world. Complexities so profound and seemingly as yet undiscovered that the alternate or parallel reality that spirituality lays claim to may yet be explained as just another chunk of the reality we already know.

At least it offers that much possibility. Now in terms of the fine art of spiritual learning what is ever on the table other than grandiose yet vague, mysterious unsubstantial attempts at providing meaning to various yearnings, desires, anxieties and anthropogenic navel gazing that is all very interesting but has yet to cough up anything more substantive than being related to a monkey dosn't feel right, so it just isn't so, or near death experiences prove that the spirit has left the body..... then changed its mind apparently.

Now don't get me wrong - I find the later particularly fascinating and generally no better explained by science, but thats where it stands - unexplained for now. We have learned much from science because it offers much to learn with tangible and practical results. At best religious belief provides a process of feeling good and purposeful, but explains nothing and with each passing year appears to become ever closer to fraudulently at odds with what we increasingly know for fact.

Yes I know. There is a good explanation for that. It is the devil at work!

Jan, would you say -if you could look at it dispassionately and without regard to societal implications for a sec - that spirituality (and its hunchback cousin, religion) may have arisen as a system of explanation for the unexplainable and it served a purpose to that effect that it perhaps can no longer serve? Perhaps it was an attempt for which it never had any business in the first place? It then morphed into a system of structural practical governance which workedc just fine until uppity science started running away with the ball so bad that its authority is now at risk as are all the associated house of cards rule book moralities set in stone.

You must admit, it is an interesting thought. No doubt one that only the devil would dream up.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
JC said;
[quoteIf you can accept the idea that 'something' or as JL prefers 'nothingness' creates the universe, then the first level of creation is through particles that we call sub-atomic particles. I observe that these are thought particles that can be directly influenced if you wish by another thought.

The next step in this thought creating is to establish persistence of particles. This is done by heavy thought particles (a molecular nucleus) trapped inside a rapid swarm of lighter particles trapped in orbital electron shells.] [/quote]

This is some of the best creative thought I've read on here.

Jus Think'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Bruce;

Maybe its cuz there aint nothing to learn?

Sorry for u..
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
Maybe its cuz there aint nothing to learn?

Sorry for u..

My you are a judgemental fellow aren't you? What would jesus say you naughty boy?

You will note that I asked a question and even qualified it with a "maybe". I would hope that you would recognize by this that I am open to the idea that ther actually is something to learn.... if only it could present itself in a learnable manner, one that can be taken with something more substantive in evidence than "faith".

Yes thats right - I am open to exploring and even being convinced of the idea. How about you cowboy? Can you say the same about my idea?
MH2

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
beyond all mental concepts


Beyond emotions and feelings, too? How would you know you had tuned in to what the quest was about, as opposed to the part of your brain faithfully tending to digestion?
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Jan threw em all a beautiful curve ball and they're all swinging blindly like crazy at it as usual ......
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
I believe John's whole premise is there is no language on the other side to translate or interpret. There is only 'experiencing', but maybe not experiencing in a 'normal' thinking sort of sense.

Interesting. The problem then is in the translation into language and apparently there is an imperative need to communicate this particular experience.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
uh, nice try at remaining relevant Werner. Somehow Jan strikes me as a straight shooter, unlike yourself.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
Maybe its cuz there aint nothing to learn?

I would consider this statement a judgement. Also voluntarily limiting one's perceptions and experiences.


Spirituality can and has been measured and proven in ways that tightly follow scientific procedures. I've seen it. Obviously, you have not and never will.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Base replied;

Being uncivil isn't cool. I actually regret those who offended Go-B. He wasn't harming anything, and you can just not read his posts if you like.

That is part of his faith. Try to convert others. He wasn't being militant about it. I think that he was wronged.

I wanna try to use this to illustrate my understanding of mind, conscienceness, spirit, and soul...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
I would consider this statement a judgement. Also voluntarily limiting one's perceptions and experiences.


Spirituality can and has been measured and proven in ways that tightly follow scientific procedures. I've seen it. Obviously, you have not and never will.

obviously? OK wise guy as I said, it may be there and I am simple not recieving it for whatever reason. In other words there is a fault in the communication. I asume you are saying the problem exists because I am deaf but as I said I am interested in hearing regardless. A new language is required perhaps for myself and other dummies. All I'm saying is that equally possibly "you guys" are shitty at communicating no matter how loud you yell.

As per "judgement" - it is true that I am more skeptical than not, but not by much. I have these "feelings" too ya know. Lets put it this way.... My judgement is not qualified by certainty. It can be swayed if compelled to do so. Can your judgement be swayed or is it locked in by certainty?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
Jan: one tries to use a dictionary or an interpreter, or one starts learning the other's language. That isn't happening here.

That's a productive approach when there is there are two languages involved. I believe John's whole premise here is there is no language on the other side to translate or interpret. There is only 'experiencing', but maybe not experiencing in a 'normal' thinking sort of sense.

So it's not really a matter of translation unless John is prepared to translate 'infinite qualities' for us which, thousands of post later, he's made it clear he isn't going to do and that it would defeat the whole purpose even if he could.

[ Edit: sorry, I pushed the wrong button so reposted it... ]
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:57pm PT

I've seen it. Obviously, you have not and never will.

SS, that's the difference between u and Christ, He hopes that Bruce will. And will. And will. And.....
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:00am PT
I didn't say it for your benefit, BB.

JoGill, back a thousand posts or so, I used to harp on the need for very clear communication when dealing with difficult concepts. It works well for sharing ideas among scientism ridden gross materialists.

Take mathematics. It has a very well developed symbolic language that is intended to eliminate errors in communicating to other mathmeticians.

Geology has a vast vocabulary. It irritates me when people come up with words that mean the same thing, though.

Math is the perfect example of a way to communicate very clearly. The language is symbolic, but it is precise.

When writing a formal paper for publication, science papers are very clearly written. We desperately need the same ability to communicate these ideas.

I asked for three simple definitions of three words. Spirit and two derivitaves of that word. I'm not getting a concensus back. I say that with care and thought this can be done, but the onus is on the spiritual ones.

To pre-empt the inevitable attack, the language doesn't have to be super rigid and precise. Just get your horses lined up and get it together.

There are so many differing spiritual beliefs that it would be nigh impossible to do, but geez, nobody can agree what spiritualism is. At least gross materialists can share ideas readily.

This isn't impossible. I remember watching a PBS show or short series on the early new testament in terms of who wrote what and when, and it was all theologians discussing it. It was great. I understood the whole thing, but they were highly educated theologians, and Christians to boot. I really enjoyed it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:03am PT
Again, I think John's point is it isn't a matter of language and that, if anything, language just gets in the way.
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:03am PT
No one needs anything explained to them. It is all right there. If you truely want to follow the thread of your spirit to the scource you just need to open yourself to the experience.

I find psychedelic chemicals to do the trick with ease, when performed in silent darkness. You dont need an old book, you dont need years of perfecting meditation techniques, you just need an afternoon alone, a sufficiant dose, and an inquiering mind.

I havnt traveled those realms for almost 20 years. I just dont need to. But it is easily and freely accessable. What do you have to lose?

Again, it is my opinion that materialist are right in that they live in this world now, as that is why we are here. Spiritualists are right because it is as real as it is unreal. Fundamentalists are just stupid and need a new hobby :)

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:27am PT
Lets put it this way.... My judgement is not qualified by certainty. It can be swayed if compelled to do so. Can your judgement be swayed or is it locked in by certainty?

Let me repeat this question as I notice that both Spider and Blue don't seem too keen on it.

In my mind the "certainty" of belief, be it secular, spiritual, scientific ( a contradiction in terms) or whatever is the poison in the broth. I fail to understand the requirement for certainty other than to avoid at all cost the possibility of being wrong about ones understanding of the nature of reality.

This is the antithesis of the process of knowledge. If a person is certain, the need to learn is moot.
Certainty seems more and more like a pact with the devil if you ask me.
jstan

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:32am PT
So it's not really a matter of translation unless John is prepared to translate 'infinite qualities' for us which, thousands of post later, he's made it clear he isn't going to do and that it would defeat the whole purpose even if he could.

Let's see if I have this straight. When Largo writes his script describing something other worldly, he counts it as a successful communication if saying those words reproduces in him a certain feeling. And if he tries harder to describe it better, it destroys his feeling.

Good grief. Even within one individual our states change sufficiently that one time Largo's words may "work" for him, but another time he has to change them. Never mind the chasm between different individuals.

This is not a language for communication between people any more than is

"Hmmmmmmmmmmm".

And it has taken thousands of posts to get even this communication through???????????????????

My gosh!


Some time ago I advanced what I thought was a substantive hypothesis as regards consciousness.

Survival is the basis upon which evolution as a concept is founded and upon which life itself is founded. Survival means that life will continue past the present moment and on to a subsequent moment. The expectation that there will be a subsequent moment has to be embedded in our neurological and other functions at very deep levels. If we would look to see how this is embedded within us I think we might be on the path to understand consciousness.

As an example consider that the firing of a neuron dissipates energy. If there is to be the potential for a subsequent firing new energy has to be made available. So on a neurological level the processes for generating that energy are put in play by the organism's expectation there may be need for another firing. Indeed our survival quite probably has revolved around evolution of a chemistry allowing that delay to be minimized.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:43am PT
jstan: ...Largo's words...

I think over many thousands of posts I've heard less than a dozen descriptive words from Largo which have attempted to convey anything about his 'proposition' (and I quote that only because I need some kind of nounish placeholder in lieu of no-thing-ness).
Messages 11921 - 11940 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews