Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 11921 - 11940 of total 23145 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
They are missing all the important ingredients ......

Yet the ol wise one can't tell us what specific ingredients any of us are missing, just a vague broad brush stroke, you guys are missing things...

WHAT THINGS???
PLEASE TELL US WHAT WE ARE MISSING.
Then we can debate the subject,
we can't debate something that you want to keep secret
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Feb 3, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
I think Werner was hinting that the 49ers needed a Hail Mary.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 3, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Is anybody familiar with the ideas of Stephen Wolfram? I couldn't finish his book "A New Kind Of Science (too boring for me), but his notion that our world is just an execution of some underlaying program sounds very interesting.
We are like cartoon characters trying to figure out the binary(?) code that created us.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 3, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
Atheists. Militant Atheists. They are both full of faith. It is indeed a religion with zealot believers that believe there is no G-d. They even fight through courts of law to force their views on others and pull down historic structures of the other peoples' faiths. Does Christedom do that to other faiths? Not that I'm aware of. Yet atheists do. They also seem to have a extreme bias against Judeo-Christian faith. Why is that?

Yet, you can't prove G-d doesn't exist. Never can and you never will. To me it's incredibly amazing how you have sooo much faith in so little evidence. It's the literal ostrich with its head in the ground.

Me thinks you don't believe because to believe would mean you are subject and accountable to G-d. And you just can't have that be true. The lie you tell yourself makes sleeping far easier. But the cliff still looms ahead and you are driving towards it.

The evidence is stacked against you. The order and the laws of the Universe shout of G-d's nature and his characteristics.


Brave, smart, gifted men, scientists believe in G-d:

Aristotle
Copernicus
Tycho Brahe
Johannes Kepler
Galileo
Sir Isaac Newton
Even Einstein

And many more.

Ladies and gentleman that is no less than the foundation of modern science.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 3, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Hmmmm. I just watched the TED video about Dawkins discussing militant atheism. He uses the term almost immediately in the talk. It is very interesting, and urges us to stop considering religion as somehow holy and immune from the same rules which define scientific inquiry, which is considerably more strict.

http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_on_militant_atheism.html

I had heard of the statistics of the National Academy of Sciences poll. Slightly more than 90% considered themselves atheists or agnostics. Dawkins was curious why there wasn't any other study to correlate atheism with intelligence. This would be interesting, because theists are themselves a wildly organized political group as a whole. Hence any person who seeks office will either be religious or a liar.

He did make an interesting point. The number of atheists in this country is many times the number of Jews, but politically atheism is something like poison. No politician would dare to "come out" and say that they are atheists. Conversely, any who oppose the antics of Israel are labeled antisemitic. They are not necessarily antisemetic. They just don't believe in religion.

There may be a few political atheists here and there, but I haven't seen any, other than the gay fellow who was on the city council here for many years until he was defeated by the well oiled machine of theism. This was hardly fair, because he was a very popular councilman and had done a great job for several terms until his homosexuality was outed in a very well funded way. He was a full professor and when he was defeated I believe he moved as far from Oklahoma as he could.

I live in a large college town, with a very high number of college graduates, so it is more friendly towards differing opinions and beliefs than most places in this state. I like it. Most of my friends are professors.

It is a good lecture. I urge you to watch it and then discuss it. It is definitely on topic.

The lecture isn't long, so it won't take up too much of your time.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 3, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
Atheists. Militant Atheists. They are both full of faith. It is indeed a religion with zealot believers that believe there is no G-d. They even fight through courts of law to force their views on others and pull down historic structures of the other peoples' faiths. Does Christedom do that to other faiths?


Yes. I am visited by the Mormon boys every year. Science sits on its hands lest they offend people like you. Christians have been trying to control science education by using the courts dating back to the Scopes trial. As to the matter of forcing Christian views on other people's faith, what planet do you live on?

Not that I'm aware of. Yet atheists do. They also seem to have a extreme bias against Judeo-Christian faith. Why is that?

Because the overwhelming number of theists in this country are Christian. Who else is there to piss off?

Yet, you can't prove G-d doesn't exist.


Neither can you. We can't prove that the tooth fairy exists or not, but any hypothesis must be falsifiable to be considered a hypothesis. I could very easily create my own religion within a few hours. Less if I had some help.

Never can and you never will. To me it's incredibly amazing how you have sooo much faith in so little evidence. It's the literal ostrich with its head in the ground.

Me thinks that this argument is turned the wrong way. I can prove that humans did not live in the Devonian. You can't. Neither can you explain why the universe is over 10 billion years old. To argue that it is 10,000 years old requires you to refute every physical and biological science

And you just can't have that be true. The lie you tell yourself makes sleeping far easier. But the cliff still looms ahead and you are driving towards it.

What lie is that? Unlike Religion, which consists of a rote book, science takes great care to avoid incorrect conclusions. They do happen, but when new data or a better explanation of the data appears, science is quite willing to change. You are the one who will not change.

I could easily say that the lie you tell YOURSELF makes you sleep better at night. You are convinced that you are going to live forever. I've only got 35 or so years left.

The evidence is stacked against you. The order and the laws of the Universe shout of G-d's nature and his characteristics.

The evidence is stacked against us? Perhaps you should go to the Geology and Geophysics Library with me, followed by Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and Astronomy. The evidence is stacked against you. You have one book, and the various interpretations of that book have actually led to wars


Brave, smart, gifted men, scientists believe in G-d:

Aristotle
Copernicus
Tycho Brahe
Johannes Kepler
Galileo
Sir Isaac Newton
Even Einstein

Wrong about Einstein. He did use the word God, but he was clearly an atheist. The rest are dead, and some were not Christians

And many more
.

OK. Start listing them.

Ladies and gentleman that is no less than the foundation of modern science
.

Ladies and gentlemen, that is no less than the foundation of modern religion. When it faces what is known about the natural universe, the hill is becoming harder to climb as knowledge increases. Do you refute the theory of the electron? Would you if the Bible specifically said that electrons were a fantasy? Why doesn't the Bible even delve into important matters such as this?

Religion is inflexible. Science is not. I'm not saying that science will cure all of society's ills, since that is not its purpose. Its purpose is to understand the natural world. It is a fantastic journey, with its share of dead ends and new discoveries.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 3, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
America is being judged. Hashem Adonai Elohim has blessed this country greatly for his divine purposes, but as we turn away from G-d, he is certainly sending us Harbigers to wake us up, repent, and return to Him.

“The propitious smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregard the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained."

--George Washington, Inaugural address 1789

A great book and best seller by Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn and DVD:

Book ...
The Harbinger: The Ancient Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future (Paperback)
By Rabbi Jonathan Cahn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/161638610X/ref=aw_ls__2?colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G&coliid=I318DPQJXLLDRG

DVD...
The Isaiah 9:10 Judgment: Is There an Ancient Mystery that Foretells America's Future?
Jonathan Cahn, George Escobar
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1936488191/ref=aw_ls__1?colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G&coliid=IGLQR0NN7JOB0


If you have a problem with this interpretation of scripture and revelation, then I suggest a good study into the Jewish Judaic acronym PaRDeS ...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis);


BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 3, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
Alright Klimmer!!

I love it when you tell us when the apocalypse is going to be!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 4, 2013 - 12:11am PT
Not talking Apocalypse, but wake up call to come back to G-d. G-d does this throughout history with many nations, especially Israel. Read the Bible. He chastises those he loves, just like a parent punishes a disobedient child to teach them and correct them.




BASE104,

How long have we argued? A long time. Years.

And yet you still can't get it right. I'm a scientist. I know cosmology, astronomy. I have a good foundation in math, physics, chemistry, geology, and even biology. I accept the Universe is 13.7 B yrs old, Sol is about 5 B, and Earth is 4.56 B. etc

I agree man didn't walk with the dinosaurs. Rachel Welch wouldn't really have been running round in sexy loin cloth with dinosaurs.

Do you have a memory problem?


You said...

Wrong about Einstein. He did use the word God, but he was clearly an atheist. The rest are dead, and some were not Christians


You clearly don't know Einstein. He had a great deal to say about G-d and even Jesus, Yeshua. He admired him greatly. Yes, they are now dead but they were the fathers of modern science, the foundation of science. I'm not saying religion or faith is the foundation of science. I've said it once, might as well say it a thousand times: Science is about cosmic order, answers what? and how? questions. Religion/Faith is about cosmic purpose, answers Who? and Why? questions. Both are very important, meaningful, and compatibly human endeavors but different purposes. Yes, Aristotle believed in Greek gods. Small g.







You said...

Science sits on its hands lest they offend people like you. Christians have been trying to control science education by using the courts dating back to the Scopes trial. As to the matter of forcing Christian views on other people's faith, what planet do you live on?


Science doesn't offend me. What offends me are those who are atheists to such a degree that they pull down historic structures of Judeo-Christian faith. There are many other faiths in the USA with religious structures on public lands yet you don't go after them. Christendom doesn't go after them. Me thinks Satan, Lucifer knows his enemy and wields his children to do his bidding. I was primarily talking about structures. But now in the public arena Atheists are doing just what you complain about, and using man's sometimes unjust laws to do so. Seems to me a violation of the second amendment, the separation of church and state. Atheism is a faith, a religion, and it is wielding the law of the land to push its agenda.



You said...

OK. Start listing them.



Gee, even a SDUSD film called "Scientific Methods and Values" that I show my students admits scientists come from all walks of life, believers, agnostics, atheists, seekers, etc. from all nations with many belief systems and some none at all. There are books and books on this. Just google books on scientists with faith and amazon. There are a plethora of books on the topic. Many very well known scientists, that were or are highly respected have faith in G-d.




You said...

When it faces what is known about the natural universe, the hill is becoming harder to climb as knowledge increases. Do you refute the theory of the electron? Would you if the Bible specifically said that electrons were a fantasy? Why doesn't the Bible even delve into important matters such as this?


The Bible does delve into important matters such as this far more than you know. How much time do we have to go through and mention as much as I can? That would be a great separate post. There is a great deal that the Torah, the Tenakh, the Bible both Old Covenant and New Covenant goes into and calls out amazingly correct thousands of years before modern science ever figured it out. Many examples. I'll have to post that sometime.

Just one example, "In the beginning G-d created heaven and Earth ..." "And G-d said, let there be light: and there was light."

Wow, science just caught up to this idea not so many years ago, that our Universe did indeed have a beginning, the point of singularity, the Big Bang. The Word of G-d said this thousands of years ago. Way ahead of its time.

The heavens were created (formed) first and then Earth. Sure enough the Universe and then our solar system, with the planets ac-creating around our new star Sol in the proto-planetary disk.

I can go on and on with many examples.
jstan

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 12:18am PT
as if ever known theologian from Claremont to Yale Divinity School is a sad sac Abrahamic superstitious myth clasping dope who lacks the facts and figures to know his way around life

Yale used to be considered good till W. went through. Not a good school to hold up now.

Do you know something about Claremont we don't?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:32am PT
I've been in anticipation of this book since I first heard that it was in the works which,...blends the gospels and other biblical material about Jesus into one continuous story, just started it today...

One Perfect Life
John MacArthur

Read the best news the world has ever been given about the most significant life in all history—Jesus Christ. In One Perfect Life, Dr. John MacArthur shares with us the complete story of the Eternal Christ from Genesis to Revelation. Using Matthew as the base text, Dr. MacArthur blends the gospels and other biblical material about Jesus into one continuous story that will help you better understand Scripture and grow stronger in your faith. No other harmony of the Gospels includes such extensive study notes to help you unpack the meaning of each verse.

Features include:

Verse-by-verse explanations from one of the most important pastor-teachers of our time
Every verse connected to Christ from Genesis to Revelation
A harmony of the Gospels that demonstrates the inerrancy of Scripture
New King James translation

480pp. Hardback.

http://www.gbibooks.com/ISBN/9781401676322

At the bottom of each page is included the notes from The MacArthur Study Bible, for that section!


photo not found
Missing photo ID#288076
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Missing photo ID#288079

...In a word, BRILLIANT!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:06am PT
stolen from aDMT post on Americans are retarded thread - worth posting here:



“All the world’s major religions, with their emphasis on love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.”


in my opinion:

The Dalai Lama nails it. Fascinating that he is capable of such insight while his native culture, one that is firmly anchored in a spiritual belief structure, is being purposely eliminated by the Chinese. If he was a run of the mill bible thumper he would be embarking on a holy jhad or Armagedon or Jones town or some other delusion of grandeur .

The implications of embracing "ethics beyond religion" would require a repudiation of tribalism, as that is the basis of ethics originating from religion.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:22am PT
Science doesn't offend me. What offends me are those who are atheists to such a degree that they pull down historic structures of Judeo-Christian faith. There are many other faiths in the USA with religious structures on public lands yet you don't go after them. Christendom doesn't go after them. Me thinks Satan, Lucifer knows his enemy and wields his children to do his bidding. I was primarily talking about structures. But now in the public arena Atheists are doing just what you complain about, and using man's sometimes unjust laws to do so. Seems to me a violation of the second amendment, the separation of church and state. Atheism is a faith, a religion, and it is wielding the law of the land to push its agenda.

At last someone shows up willing to discuss rather than quote scripture - thanks Klimmer!
I think Jan was addressing some of the points you make above. The historical structures you mention provide cultural structure which if destroyed could result in anarchy. The "assault" on christianity is particularly a threat because christianity is so freaking politically powerful. Hardly anyone gives a rats ass about the assault on scientology here or the genocidal assault on Tibetan buddism in Tibet because they are so light weight.

I'm curious, from a purely faith stand point (not to do with pragmatism) what exactly do you have against losing some "historical structures of the judeo -christian faith"? If some of the mythology was to be proven wrong in the literal sense for instance, would that not result in a better understanding of your faith?

Would it be the same death scentence that Mormonism would face if it could be conclusively proven that Joseph Smith was a snake oil salesman who hit the gold mine?

What do you think of the Dalai Lama quote mentioned above?
WBraun

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:49am PT
the all knowing Google

That is a joke, right?
WBraun

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:51am PT
but so far they haven't been needed in our current understanding of how the universe works.

The entire material Universe is the external inferior energy of God.

So you're wrong ......
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 4, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
the all knowing Google

That is a joke, right?

Oh no Werner. Google is D_g. Get the fuk on board or die
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
What about the missing ingredients Werner??

I'm waiting...
Or were you just thinking/speculating/guessing...

and you got nothing as usual
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 4, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Got to love googly eyes...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#288118
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 4, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
I'm still waiting for Fruity to come out of the pigeon coup and ask an honest question about spirituality for which he doesn't already have an answer (the 'right" answer) in his head.

Of course he won't, which underscores the glitch in the Harris school: They are not engaged in a true inquiry, for without questions, there can be no new learning. For Fruity, he'd have leave off that dead dog he keeps kicking (Abrahamic doctrinal religion) and stretch his mind in another direction. We can encourage this expansion, but so long as the pigeon flies in one and only one direction, there is no helping him.

JL

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 4, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
It's gonna be interesting if this thread ever starts chewing on Free Will, which is where many of the crucial elements of this discussion find full traction. "Free" means non-deterministic, meaning that we have a choice that is not beholden to mechanical, antecedent causes, or any causes.

From a strict, forward running, linear, mechanistic view of causality, which is a let brain, discursive mind view, how could any choice not come from some prior cause? Are we saying that some choices are spontaneous and are unborn and unproduced by something that came before. We sort of get an by immaculate conception - out of the blue. But in fact even "put of" betrays my mind wanting to posit the free act as arising from something, even the blue. So from the rational mind we must say there is no free will because discursively we cannot fathom a thought of action unrelated to anything. We can only imagine all things as products of prior material causes.

But when we but out that defense to the judge, that I really didn't have a choice in stealing my neighbors sports car, he'll hear none of it.

Why?

JL
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