Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 11901 - 11920 of total 22721 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
It's interesting to guess what kind of experiences a person must have had to arrive at these conclusions, of whether he too, has tried to imagine or think his way to said conclusions, as opposed to making the effort to do something. Also, I would wager that the word "imagined" refers to some "thing" or entity which the mind cooked up to sate existential fear - that's the party line. And it's way off base.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
...infinite qualities...

Now we're talking...
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
Good answer, but that wasn't really the thrust of my question. Have you "seen" in four dimensions, or have you "seen" the particle-wave duality? I threw in the drug stuff as examples of perceiving things that were beyond normal experience, but I am more interested in things on the frontier of science that seem to defy normal logic.

Thanks anyway.

I am not educated on those subjects enough to know. I am just a simple man. But I do believe one thing I have experienced is what you are getting at, but it is indescribable and uncomprehendable. I can only describe it as a timeless energy grid that is unchanging eternal underlying everything. Any attempt to accurately paint a picture just falls incredibly flat. It truely is like Lao Tzu trying to describe the Tao. Perhaps it is more like the Yin to the Taos Yang.

The trade off with these experiences is there is a complete loss of ego, so you can't really do anything but experience. It is like being in a dream, you just go with it. The minute "you" comes into the picture the vision will fade. It is so far beyond 4 dimensions, and wave particle duality, those things are just meaningless when you step beyond the physical universe.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
spirit = imagination

spiritual = imaginary

spiritual universe = see above

I love that quote!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
This conversation reminds me a lot of two people who speak different languages trying to communicate wherein one begins talking louder to the other, then mutters under his or her breath about the inferiority of the other, and finally swears at the other because they can't comprehend the speaker's own language.

In a successful cross cultural situation, one tries to use a dictionary or an interpreter, or one starts learning the other's language. That isn't happening here. I know the scientists will jump down my throat insisting that they are objective, but from my perspective, they are the ones who keep shouting louder and louder.

Anytime the spiritually oriented try to define what they mean, instead of listening, the science types quickly dismiss their ideas as inferior by the criteria the science types themselves set up. Thus no real communication takes place. That's like one person shouting at another, "speak my language because it is best. I know it is best, because it's the one I use". The spiritual people meanwhile are saying, you can't judge my language until you've learned to speak it, and to speak it you have to learn my vocabulary, my grammar, my body language and customs.

So here we are shouting at each other across a chasm as large as the Grand Canyon. In the meantime I can say I've learned a lot about science and the scientific mind set in the process, but I don't think much has been learned about the spiritual world view. And then of course there is always the diversionary tactic of insisting that a person who doesn't speak one's own language must be speaking a third language (religion) even though the person maintaining this doesn't know either of the other languages involved.

One has to conclude that ethnocentrism is rampant and there is no real desire for communication.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
but I don't think much has been learned about the spiritual world view.
Maybe you have realized that there is nothing to learn, since it is devoid of substance

like us
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
church and state

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55876876-78/church-lds-political-devisser.html.csp
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.

I knew it all along.
God has a God !!!...
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Dr. F,

Keep with cactus pics. Cartoons are a little shallow at this point.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
I know the scientists will jump down my throat insisting that they are objective, but from my perspective, they are the ones who keep shouting louder and louder.

This assumes that people have the conscious wherewithal to know the difference between functioning strictly form within the discursive mind, wrangling, adding, dividing, figuring, charting discrete things, and letting go of that tool and being open to using another tool. Just the idea alone of using another tool is so threatning and terrifying to the rational mind that it, not any conscious "I," will do all the "shouting" in order to get the conversation back on familiar ground. Everything else will feel like utter bullsh#t, not because it is, rather because from the limited perspective of the rational mind, there is no other. Ask Craig.

To get movement there has to be conscious willingness, and in my experience, the last thing folks want to do, even adventurous folks, is to really dive into the cloud of unknowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloud_of_Unknowing

Many modern practices approach practice in a similar way minus "God." Tastes differ according to experience.

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
You make alot of assumptions of what I know or how I feel
I think your discursive mind is overly judgemental, and maybe, you are just fooling yourself, like the rest of humanity

science is the only known method of finding the truth, and exposing fallacy
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Anytime the spiritually oriented try to define what they mean, instead of listening, the science types quickly dismiss their ideas as inferior by the criteria the science types themselves set up. Thus no real communication takes place.


Yep.


There are those with minds made up to agree with "man is just meat" theories.

There are those who hand all responsibility for life over to a big spirit in the sky.


Then there are the curious. The ones asking questions.


People can find spiritual power, higher awareness and better perception.


Dogma and chemicals never worked for me.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.

Or you can find nothingness
and see what it really it is

NOTHING

and I MEAN Nothing
MH2

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
No surprise, Jan. Words are a weak vessel to carry spiritual messages in.


Maybe other kinds of communication could bridge the divide. After all, your left cerebral hemisphere and its right partner talk back and forth. Why not extend that kind of connection to another's brain, given a safe and ethical means to do so? If we ever develop machine intelligence it also would presumably not be limited to the "1st person subjective bubble" we are trapped in as biological individuals.

Or, perhaps we would just be creating a slightly larger sphere of subjective experience if we could communicate more effectively.

I think the bigger danger would be a means to achieve and an impulse towards uniformity. There is nothing harmful in most forms of spirituality and often great beauty and comfort. We should be grateful for the diversity of views expressed in this thread. Even within a single mind there are many sub-components which exhibit various degrees of cooperation and competition.

Until the world is completely paved over with fast-food joints let us keep many different approaches to the problems the world may throw at us. Unless you know the future you can't be sure what demands it may place on you.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
Or you can find nothingness
and see what really it is

NOTHING

and I MEAN Nothing


I'll bet you have no idea how fundamentally true this statement is.


Or....


Maybe you do.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
I think after 60,000 years of trying to describe "Spiritual" experiences and God, that they would have figured it out.

But from my vantage point, I can see why they haven't figured it out, because it's impossible, since it doesn't exist the way they want to describe it, so it lacks the words necessary to describe it

There are no words for something that we want to describe that doesn't exist
MH2

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
Or until the world is paved over with Dr F. stands dispensing advice at 5 cents per.
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Dr F -- "no words for something that we want to describe that doesn't exist"


For you nothing exist anyways to begin with except for that 9 billion dollar tube that was made by stealing the money from poor hard working people only to smash some sh!t around and tell
them nothing exists but what you say is only.

In the end you'll fall into the sucker yourself and become nothing and cease to exist ......
jstan

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
In a successful cross cultural situation, one tries to use a dictionary or an interpreter, or one starts learning the other's language. That isn't happening here.


A really excellent example is the very recent attempt to generate a philosophical and definitive discussion of the "soul" robust enough to last for generations and succinct enough to astonish the mighty. What came out was that we don't have a consensus as to what a "soul" is. Not even the barest trace of an agreement.

That is what the "scientist" types have been saying all along. Hard to have a discussion that renormalizes human understanding when one person is talking chickens and the other turkeys.


Anytime the spiritually oriented try to define what they mean, instead of listening, the science types quickly dismiss their ideas as inferior by the criteria the science types themselves set up

Here you can help me, Jan. What is the criteria the "spiritual types" follow? I have not detected any. I see a stream of english words for which the speaker has his own idiosyncratic meanings, all of them opaque to me. Like soul. When I read "soul" I scroll.

If that makes me the bad guy, go for it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
There is nothing harmful in most forms of spirituality and often great beauty and comfort.


I have no idea what form of spirituality you are talking about. Not that there are not beauty and comfort in the quest. But the goal is what is true, beyond all mental concepts. This cannot get lost since it's the Golden Fleece.
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