Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 11881 - 11900 of total 22995 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:13am PT
I guess I'm more interested in this topic than I am about philosophy of science

Glad to hear it. Those of us who have spent time delving into the mysteries of science and mathematics engage in our efforts with no small amount of time and emotional commitment. That was a message I tried to convey in the little story about being subsumed in a research project twenty-three years ago.

When a non-practitioner appears, questioning the premises, even validity of our discoveries, it tends to raise a few hackles, and sounds suspiciously like a religious admonition. Especially when such criticisms are inscrutable.

As to the sometimes virulent replies, well - that's the internet for you. If each taco participant were required to disclose his/her true name and details about their backgrounds, that might have some marginal effect on levels of civility. Then, maybe not. Who really cares. That's a small price to pay for technological marvels like the internet.



Your comments on narrative and story in literature are interesting. I enjoy science fiction, particularly tales involving time travel, a topic that goes beyond physics and stretches the imagination.

Incidentally, a previous post of mine alludes to the (admittedly faint) possibilty that math underlies the fabric of the universe. Here is a link to a philosophical position stronger than mine!

Mathematical universe hypothesis





;>)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:29am PT
For insight into the essential role that narrative (otherwise myth, story or literature) plays in belief systems (e.g., religions and beyond), there's no better than...

(1) Everybody's Story, (2) Amythia, (3) Religion is Not About God - all by Loyal Rue, a Templeton award winner for his scholarship.

He was also a participant in the very popular Beyond Belief 2006 symposium - avail on youtube - in which he deconstructs religion in large part in terms of narrative and points to strategies that developers or innovators of the future might employ as they are challenged to try to respond to.. "If not religion and theology by which to guide our lives, then what?"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:41am PT
MikeL,
i've always appreciated your deep thoughts.Even though mostly opposite of my own.

I'd like to shift the conversation, to use the posts on this thread as observations. What is it about ideologies, worldviews, concepts, theories, frameworks, etc. that make them so emotionally charged that conversations about them give rise to ridicule, ad hominems, back-handed retorts, and exaggerated declarations of what a person "was REALLY saying?"

Basically, Everyone hates lies. And therefore seek truths that resemble what they have learned to be true.
What if; someone came out with proof positive against Einsteins theory of gravity,or Darwins idea of the Origins of life. And this new truth took us in a different positive direction. Illrefuteable proof. i think the people
that where clinging to the old truths would hav a hard time changing their minds. Solely from their experiences and emotions invested. They'll feel
as though they've been lied to,and in retrospect, they themselves have been speading a "lie". And no one feels good about lieing. So they become
emotionally charged, and lash out to protect they're precieved truths.

i for one, not being well read. Therefor not having alot of other peoples
"educated" ideas of truth. Mostly have my 50 years of life experiences as
my only truths. The no.1 truth being the entire universe opperates on the flip of a coin; Heads, +positive and Tails, -negative. And we as indivduals
have the opportunity to change the universe with our choice between these two actions. When we witness a negative action,its easy to become heated
and reply negatively. But this only discredits ourselves. When we react
in a positive manner toward a negativity, only then can we both grow.
And feel good about ourselves!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
Isn't Science a "IF" - "THAN" religion?

Even science predicts a end of times.

IF we continue to burn fossil fuels,, THEN our ozone will dissolve and life will die.

When the fact is scientists know that when Mount St. Helens erupted. It spewed 60,000 times more carbon monoxide and CO2 then mankind has in his lifetime.

And science has absolutely no idea how strong the O-Zone is or what it's capable of.

Seems like people take some scientific fact and construct it into their own agendas.

Religion or Business??
MH2

climber
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
They demand readers suspend their most basic judgments


Yes, this is the thing to do for movies and literature.

There is also LOTS we don't know about the physical world, and basic descriptions of it are open to question but to make a new idea interesting takes something beyond doubting. Established views have been found wanting many times in the history of science. To get change takes evidence sufficient to convince skeptical experts in the field. Conversations among scientists are often adversarial and MikeL may be experiencing a bit of that. However, if you are questioning the nature of reality, science and its practitioners should be an interested audience if you have a good story.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
I can understand the reticence of most to take the step after acknowledging the utility of science as a means of predicting the physical world... that step being that all there is is the physical world. Science leads us to a very different notion of our life's meaning in the universe than traditional thoughts on the subject.

Call me old fashioned but I thought science offered only theoretical and experimental results, whether its utility is accepted or not.
How does scrupulously obtained data on the physical world, however predictive, logically lead to the existential conclusion that 'only the physical world exists' ?

When a non-practitioner appears, questioning the premises, even validity of our discoveries, it tends to raise a few hackles, and sounds suspiciously like a religious admonition. Especially when such criticisms are inscrutable.

Mr. Jogill:

Excuse us fumbling and incoherent laity, we often are humbly nervous and self-conscious in the presence of the material priesthood. We approach haltingly , with our hats in our hands, penniless , except for the odd inscrutable or two.


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
Marlow sez

"History is littered with doomsdays that have come and gone. The end of civilisation seems to hold a morbid fascination for people, through a combination of grim excitement over how the end might come, and more individual thoughts of our own extinction.

These would be ideas from the atheist secular group. Without having any anticipation toward an afterlife. They lead their life with the presumption as to not having any purpose or meaning
They conclude that they have a right to life from millions of years of evolving. So upon assessing their lives their spiritualality seems unfulfilled. So maybe they look toward a cataclysmic Super Bowl Sunday to mark the end of their otherwise meaningless life?

Elsewhere Christ followers lead their lives with purpose and understanding to an eternal life.
And carry no fear of man's deceitfullness in predicting or provoking man's last day.
God chooses the hour for every mans death! We mustn't be afraid of man or nature taking our lives before God wants us. That's why I have no need for a gun. I can't prolong my life by shooting somebody before they shoot me. God has a plan for my life and he will not allow it to be taken until his plan is completely fulfilled.
MH2

climber
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
How does scrupulously obtained data on the physical world, however predictive, logically lead to the existential conclusion that 'only the physical world exists' ?


Remove the word 'existential.'

Now, if you can improve on our present ability to predict by drawing on a source outside the physical world, then we might need to reconsider the default position that only the physical world exists. We don't depend entirely on logic in the sciences. We are willing to use whatever works. Sometimes luck, serendipity, or intuition work where logic doesn't. What are you suggesting lies outside the physical world? Or are you only holding open the possibility that there could be such?
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
What are you suggesting lies outside the physical world? Or are you only holding open the possibility that there could be such

I am not suggesting anything at this stage , I was simply responding to a poster who did suggest that 'nothing 'exists outside of the physical world:

acknowledging the utility of science as a means of predicting the physical world... that step being that all there is is the physical world.

Do you agree with the epistemological map outlined here , that after acknowledging the predictive ability of science ,the next step , naturally would be the conclusion that nothing exists but the physical world?

Btw I apologize for the combative tone of my post. Either a defensive or offensive approach becomes de rigeur every time I log onto this forum. But I'm cool. Nothing personal. I enjoy this thread and the people on it.

The word "existential" remains, however.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
MH2.....the operable word for postulating a spiritual world is "faith." It makes no sense to argue against it because faith is "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
what leads you to believe otherwise?

I have not made any assertion as yet. It's not about me. It's about your assertion ,which is the subject of this examination.
I require further clarification as denoted by my question to MHz .
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
Ed - I'll answer that!


Faith!


Did I win anything?
WBraun

climber
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
There has to be proof of the spiritual world ultimately.

It can't be based ultimately only on faith alone ......
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
the explanation is that nothing more than the physical world is needed to explain it...

That assertion is substantially different than " that all there is is the physical world"
WBraun

climber
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
A man is suffering from jaundice and you give him a piece of sugar candy, he will say that it is very bitter.

In the same way the jaundiced gross materialist sees the world in duality.

Once purified from all material contamination and entanglements he once again sees the True sweetness that was always there.

It can take many lifetimes or it can be done in an instant.

All depends on the individual ....

Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
There has to be proof of the spiritual world ultimately.
Man has been looking for proof since the very beginning, and he has found nothing that can be called proof that can be used as evidence
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
You are assuming that the other is jaundiced and not yourself.

That is what is known as predjudice
WBraun

climber
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
No

YOU found nothing.

But since you and some other fools speak for all mankind on this planet we have to have FAITH in your made up conclusions.

Not .....
WBraun

climber
Dec 22, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
I didn't assume anything you knuckle head Bruce Kay.

It was an analogy.

Give it up, you're failing miserably trying to project .....
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 22, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
the explanation is that nothing more than the physical world is needed to explain it...

As I see it this assertion claims that nothing more than scientific methodology is required to understand that the reason an apple falls to earth is due to gravity and other attendant factors.
No God , or other metaphysical explanations,is needed or required to explain the falling apple, because no evidence has been hitherto detected.

that all there is is the physical world

Is an assertion about the ultimate nature of the universe. Which cannot be determined by the methodology that simply explains the physical world.
How does a scientific explanation of physical phenomenon arrive at the logical, definitive conclusion that all there is is a physical world?
Messages 11881 - 11900 of total 22995 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews