Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 20, 2012 - 07:55am PT
Go-b, so you've established Jesus is the way - so again, does that mean any of the christian faiths in the chart above will suffice - all are equal?

photo not found
Missing photo ID#279338

The Test of Knowing Him
1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

Do Not Love the World
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

The Children of God
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 20, 2012 - 08:06am PT
Jesus Christ, Easter bunny, tooth fairy, Santa Claus are all real.

You ignorant fool! How can you be such a dumb-ass? Santa Claus is the only real thing in that whole list! The rest are just myth. It would be obvious to anyone of intelligence.

I'm jesting. You are not a dumb-ass. In the, dare I say, spirit, of the upcoming holiday, it seems appropriate to worship the god of loot and stuff and deny all others.

A news report on NPR got people from FedEx and UPS to calculate just what Santa would need to deliver all of the presents. They mostly disallowed for magic and ended up calculating that he needs a support staff of 12 million and more 747 planes than exist to carry it all. Oh, and the business would cost a few billion in capital to set it up. It was all really funny because of how serious everyone was and how they avoided hinting to any kids listening that Santa wasn't real.

So cheers to Santa Claus and to everyone who worships him during this holiday season. May you get lots of loot and maybe get drunk, safely, too.

Dave



Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 20, 2012 - 08:44am PT
Merry Christmas Otzi

(We hardly knew ye...)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 20, 2012 - 09:28am PT
Inspired: The Better Angels of Our Nature, by Steven Pinker



1. This wood cut shows the 'breaking wheel' as it was used in Germany in the Middle Ages. The exact date is unknown, as is the creator, but it depicts the execution of Peter Stumpp in Cologne in 1589. This form of punishment was most common during the middle ages and early modern age.

2. The woodcut relates the crime and the punishment of Peter Stumpp and includes a depiction of the punishment of his daughter and mistress.

3. Stumpp was accused of being a werewolf and in the top left hand corner of the woodcut we see a large wolf attacking a child. Above this scene a man with a sword is seen fighting off the wolf and in doing so, lops off the wolf’s left forepaw.

4. In the center left of the illustration we are shown the first punishment of Stumpp, namely the tearing of his flesh with red hot pincers while he is bound to a wheel.

5. In the middle we see the executioner using the blunt side of an axe to break Stumpp’s arm and leg bones.

6. On the righthand side of the illustration the executioner beheads Stumpp.

7. In each of these three depictions we can see that Stumpp’s left hand is missing, presumably pointing to the fact that the werewolf had its left forepaw cut off.

8. After his beheading, Stumpp’s body is dragged away to be burnt. In the top right hand corner of the wood cut we see the fire where Stumpp’s daughter and mistress, each tied to a stake, are burnt alive with Stumpp’s headless body tied to a stake between them.

9. Also shown is a wheel, mounted on a pole, which carries Stumpp’s decapitated head together with a figure of a wolf.


Progress is hard.
Then again we've come a long way.
WBraun

climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 09:41am PT
Yeah we've come a long way.

Slaughter children and civilians now all over the world.

We are are so much more advanced now, rolls eyes ........
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 20, 2012 - 09:47am PT
So read Pinker's book, Mr. SmartyPants, you might learn a thing or two.

"This book is about what may be the most important thing that has ever happened in human history. Believe it or not - and I know that most people do not — violence has declined over long stretches of time, and today we may be living in the most peaceable era in our species’ existence. The decline, to be sure, has not been smooth; it has not brought violence down to zero; and it is not guaranteed to continue. But it is an unmistakable development..."

Steven Pinker

.....

Do you know your saints?

Saint Lawrence would become the patron saint of comedians. Why?

Because while he was lying on the gridiron in the process of being roasted to death, he said to his tormenters, “This side’s done, turn me over and have a bite.”
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 20, 2012 - 09:57am PT
i'm still confused as
to what scientist call "life' inside an Oak tree?


Xylem and Phloem (zye-lem and flow-um) : The two primary components of botanical vascular tissue. Xlyem transports water and minerals, while phloem transports sugar.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 20, 2012 - 10:00am PT
What's more... it respires, it transcribes, it replicates.

Blu's a Go-B. If he had any genuine interest, he'd enroll in a biology course.
MH2

climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 10:05am PT
Is it possible to come up with a perfectly neutral answer?


What is meant by, "a perfectly neutral answer?" In what way would the answer 9.8 meters per second per second be subject to bias in the observer?
WBraun

climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 11:11am PT
The gross materialists have no clue of the velocities of the mind and intelligence.

All they have is the material velocities of light and air.

The soul travels by its own strength free from all material attributes ......
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 20, 2012 - 11:31am PT
Stumpp was most certainly a convert to Protestantism. The war brought the invasion of armies of either side, the assaults by marauding soldiers and eventually an epidemic of the plague.
When the Protestants were defeated during 1587, Bedburg Castle became the headquarters of Catholic mercenaries commanded by the new lord of Bedburg - Werner, Count of Salm-Reifferscheidt-Dyck, who was a staunch Catholic determined to re-establish the Roman faith.
So it is not inconceivable that the werewolf trial was but a barely concealed political trial, with the help of which the new lord of Bedburg planned to bully the Protestants of the territory back into Catholicism. If it had only been just another execution of a werewolf and a couple of witches, as occurred about this time in various parts of Germany, the attendance of members of the aristocracy – perhaps including the new Archbishop and Elector of Cologne – would be surprising. Furthermore, the trial remained a singular event.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Stumpp

My instincts on this were correct, the execution of Stumpp was essentially a political show trial that used the werewolf angle ,and even accusations that Stumpp was a serial killer, as a guise to allow the local Catholic Aristocracy to terrorize the local populace into repudiating Protestanism.

In any case, in presenting this example as an indication of some former barbarity based upon superstition is historically incorrect . This execution was essentially an act of war that transpired within the context of vicious warring sides, hideous plagues, and enormously stressful economic ,religious,and political upheaval in Europe .This appalling landscape of cruelty and violence has not changed in the human species. In fact it would get much worse in our era ,as we saw with the horrendous events of the the last century.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 20, 2012 - 11:48am PT
I wonder if atheists ever warred on atheists?

Well, the invasion of The Soviet Union by Hitler and the consequent revenge exacted by Stalin, immediately leaps to mind. 25 million died in that carnage as a result of those two titans of religious zealotry.

The social pathology of war and mass conflict does not need religion for essential motivation, only as a manipulative pretext.
Wars are fought generally over real estate ,and treasure, and power. Those electives have remained unchanged to date and would continue unabated even if all religions were eliminated by social engineering command or unlikely persuasions.

what a perfectly christian thing to do, I guess, in the middle ages...

It was also a perfectly Christian thing to war on Muslims. It was called the Crusades.. Similarly it was a Muslim thing to war on Christians by the conquest of the Iberian peninsula and then the Christian thing to war on Muslims by the reconquista,and so on.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
I wonder if atheists ever warred on atheists?
Over which gods NOT to believe in?
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
Over which gods NOT to believe in?

No , over real estate, money , and power. The same reasons 'religious' people fight over.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
"Pure mathematics might seem like it can be observed without distortion, but I doubt it. "

This seems pretty tame compared to religious wars, but perhaps here is what you have in mind: when a mathematician discovers an interesting result in several examples he may form a conjecture that it is valid in a larger sense. It then becomes a little like working on a FA and a certain amount of ego arises. In his attempt to verify the conjecture, converting it to a theorem, he may not recognize a flaw in his reasoning. This is why mathematics is a social activity: other practitioners (referees) must verify the chain of logic before the larger result is accurately called a theorem and published in a recognized journal.

For this reason, and because math has become so diverse and complicated, most papers published these days are joint efforts, involving two or three experts in the area. This reduces the liklihood of a single person not recognizing a flaw, and increases the quality and scope of the results: two minds are better than one.

In all of this, however, the basic structure of math remains more or less secure - only the researcher is fallible. It's not like quantum mechanics, where the process of observing somehow influences the thing observed. It's simply that mistakes are made.

But, maybe you are thinking of something more arcane and metaphysical.

Your comment does provoke thought.

;>)



Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
"Pure mathematics might seem like it can be observed without distortion, but I doubt it. "

I don' t know what context this statement was made within, but I'll take a stab at what it could purport to mean, and consider it in isolation.

Pure math I take to mean as distinct from applied math. The applied variety is subject to provisionally erroneous solutions as the result of experiment and observation ,and is therefore subject to continual revision until a satisfactory result is obtained.. Applied math ,at any given time ,is therefore subject to "distortions" . Applied math is essentially an act of translation, and re-translation.

Pure math, on the other hand , when satisfactorily proved and revised , being unconnected to shifting experimental results, can safely claim its consequent proofs are unassailable. It must only satisfy its own internal rules.
The author of the above statement is suggesting that the proofs of pure math are somehow nonetheless still distorted, despite the claim and appearance of an unassailable logical validity.
He is also claiming ,in a roundabout way ,there is no real-world quod Erat demonstrandum in pure math - a recurring theme in some argumentation surrounding the overall nature of pure mathematics.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
Racetrack Playa
Racetrack Playa
Credit: TomCochrane


This is Racetrack Playa in Death Valley California. This area has been the centre of scientific controversy for decades. Why? At this location an amazingly large number or rocks and boulders (some weighing up to half a tonne) have been regularly moving across the surface, without any human or animal interference, and they are not just moving a small distance; one travel path was recorded at 880.73 metres!

Some scientists have proposed that the movement is caused by strong winds accompanied by the development of surface ice when temperatures fall. It is hypothesised that the development of ice allows the wind to move the rocks with less difficultly. This hypothesis, however, is commonly refuted. The hypothesis cannot account for rocks starting side by side and moving at different rates and in disparate directions, and sliding rock trails vary in direction and length. Some rocks which start next to each other start out travelling parallel, but one may abruptly change direction to the left, right, or even back the direction it came from. Length also varies because two similarly size and shaped rocks could travel uniform, then one could burst ahead or stop dead in its tracks.

Another hypothesis proposed is that another force is present; electromagnetism. Air passing through the valley is positively-charged, since it has passed over the highest mountains in the Lower 48 to get into the valley, and since positive charge increases with altitude. The electric charge in the air induces an opposite charge in the Earth, creating an electrostatic potential between them. Dolomite, being composed of calcium, magnesium, and sometimes with traces of iron, is a good conductor. Being in contact with the surface, it will be negatively charged, and will therefore be attracted to the positive charge in the air above. Sticking up above the perfectly flat playa, the rocks will concentrate the lines of force on themselves, accentuating the effect. The electric force will then exert an uplifting force on the rock, reducing the friction caused by gravity, and allowing it to travel more easily.

This hypothesis is also widely discredited. A team of interns from NASA’s Lunar and Planetary Science Academy went to Racetrack Playa last year to investigate. They found that there are no electromagnetic or radiation anomalies that would account for the movement, and they also found no patterns in the mass, direction and orientation in the moving stones.

There are several other explanations offered by the scientific community, but as of yet, none are set in stone!! ;)

Here is yet another hypothesis, this time regarding the role of filamentous bacteria in the movement: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/life-in-death-valley/the-mystery-of-the-racing-rocks/5088/
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 20, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It sounds as if Dr. Messina is zeroing in on an eventual explanation for the racing rocks. Her identifying of the factors of wind, water, and perhaps bacteria sounds like a plausible starting point.
After integrating additional data I think she will ultimately refine her theory and perhaps even devise a method to prove it .
By -the -seat of the pants field science at its best. This a remote area.
jstan

climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Some scientists have proposed that the movement is caused by strong winds
accompanied by the development of surface ice when temperatures fall. It is hypothesised that
the development of ice allows the wind to move the rocks with less difficultly. This hypothesis,
however, is commonly refuted. The hypothesis cannot account for rocks starting side by side and
moving at different rates and in disparate directions, and sliding rock trails vary in direction and
length. Some rocks which start next to each other start out travelling parallel, but one may
abruptly change direction to the left, right, or even back the direction it came from. Length also
varies because two similarly size and shaped rocks could travel uniform, then one could burst
ahead or stop dead in its tracks.

I would suggest going out to observe what happens when:
1. There has been a warm period followed by a severe cold snap after a pronounced rain. (The
condensation of water from the vapor releases heat so temperature often drops markedly after a
storm ends.)

2. Followed after a day or so by substantial wind. (I presume the rocks sat in water that then
froze, the ice effectively forming a boat.)

3. If the air temperature stays above freezing the boat will remain attached to the rock even as
heat diffuses up from the substratum that was still warm from the earlier warm period. At that
point the rock will be experiencing a boyant force because of the attached ice. The attached ice
does not melt because the air temperature is below freezing. But the ice directly in contact with
the sand melt as subsurface heat diffuses up.

4. Any wind at this point has a chance of moving the now partially floated rocks.

5. The actual force required to move a given rock will depend upon any remaining resistance
presented by the force of digging the slide mark and of the amount of sail presented by the
rock+ice boat. There will be a high degree of variation in both trail length and direction.

Anyone who has skipped stones across a frozen pond and has observed what happens in a wind
as the sheet melts only has to come up with a scenario for the weather. The desert features
1. Flat surfaces
2. Extreme and rapid temperature changes
3. A lot of wind

PS:
The cellular structure evident on the surface is, I believe a response to very large changes in
things like the water content in the sand. There is a change in soil density that causes the
surface to separate into a cellular structure. You see this when a dry lake dries out under high
heat.

It would not be too difficult to set up an experimental apparatus to explore these weather
scenarios and to see what happens.

There is another effect called "frost heaving" that causes stone in arctic areas to appear on the
surface. The density of ice is less than that of water so as water underneath a rock freezes it lifts
the rock up. When small I had the job plowing each year and I never stopped finding new rock
where there were none the year before.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 20, 2012 - 02:50pm PT


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3JzcCviNDk
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