Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 16, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Go-b, is there an answer in any of those last few posts? Who's jesus?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 16, 2012 - 02:12pm PT



How funny…. Why do people laugh at creationists? Go-B is why!!!


Still good to know I not dealing with someone who thinks for themselves; everything is resolved with a nose in the bible.


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 16, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
Right now, streaming live... The Moral Molecule.

http://www.skeptic.com/upcoming-lectures/

A revolution in the scientific study of good and evil, Dr. Paul Zak’s new book, The Moral Molecule.

1) Why do some people give freely while others are cold hearted?

2) Why do some people cheat and steal while others you can trust with your life?

3) Why are some husbands more faithful than others—and why do women tend to be more generous than men?

Could the key to moral behavior lie with a single molecule?



Let's see if this handsome young fella (Dr. Paul Zak, not Go-B) has anything worthy to say.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 16, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
To those who responded to my post:

I have no problems with mathematics. I have no problem with any discipline. (How could any discipline or field of study be bad or good?) If I have a problem, it's with what people do with them or make of them, that's all. Apparently, I was not clear about that in my writing.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 16, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Let's see if this handsome young fella (Dr. Paul Zak, not) Go-B has anything worthy to say.

HO HO HO!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 16, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
HO HO HO!


 Not worthy.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 16, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
I have no problems with mathematics. I have no problem with any discipline. (How could any discipline or field of study be bad or good?) If I have a problem, it's with what people do with them or make of them, that's all.

I had the same problem. A bunch of my engineering major buddies all went to work on defense projects. I had a bunch of Dallas skydiving buddies who were engineers at plants and stuff in Dallas.

After giving it ten minutes of thought, I came to the conclusion that spending your life thinking of better ways to kill people was immoral. I let all of those friendships kind of wither. Couldn't get over it. If I brought up the moral aspect, they would get all patriotic.

One of the main tenets of fascism is rabid nationalism. So I'm one of those secular humanists that the Baptists hate.

You can do a lot of bad things with new knowledge and technology. It has been a constant fact since the invention of the spear.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 16, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
I would just like to say to those amongst you who believe the world is 7000 years old. DINOF*#KINGSAURS! If dinosaurs where real which nobody denies that they where real. One would think that some where in the Bible it would mention a hundred foot f*#king lizard….. “ and then Jacob lead the Isrealites into Egypt due to the severe famine that had ravaged their lands in Canaan, as they marched through the desert and upon seeing the Fertile lands of Egypt, there was a GREAT, BIG F*#KING, BRONTOSAURUS REX, blocking their way”

(just read this on facebook)
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 17, 2012 - 05:40am PT
Them (dino) bones...

But first, is there such a thing as sin? The bible says,"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
The Ten Commandments tell us do not take the Lords name in vain, do not steal, etc.
God sent His Son Jesus, the only one without sin, to intercede for us before God.

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

We are saved by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone.
We have God's inspired word the bible, that's more than bones!



...You say, "Well what about fossils?" What about fossils? I'll tell you one thing about fossils, they must
have been formed after the creation, not before. They had to be formed after the creation...let me
give you a scientific definition of fossils: dead stuff. That is...that's profound but that's it. Fossils,
that's dead stuff. And there's no(t) any death. Romans 5:12, as I mentioned earlier, that death came by
sin. There's no death before the fall of Adam. You can't have billions and billions of years of billions
and billions of things dying and becoming fossils if you don't have death. It is true, there are billions
of fossils and there are fossil fields all over the world...massive, massive death did occur.
What caused it? There was clearly a tremendous rain of death all over the earth. There was clearly
a massive, massive death and the Bible gives the absolutely accurate information into what it was. It
was the universal, world-wide Flood, Genesis 6 and 7. And you can look into the science of that, it's
absolutely fascinating. Very likely at that time the once what scientists think was a super continent
split up, fountains of the deep were broken up and the earth's surface was changed and tectonic
plates collided and pushed up mountains which used to be at the bottom of the sea. That's why you
find fish fossils in the Himalayas and in Grand Canyon. The whole earth was fractured. There's not
enough rain water falling for 40 days to drown the earth above the Himalayas, in excess of 25
thousand feet in elevation. There's no enough rain water to fall, the water had to come from
somewhere else. And it did. It came up from the ocean floors as lava cracked out and cracked open.
The earth's surface cracked open and lava poured out heating the water to a fever pitch and as the
water went into steam in to the sky and eventually vaporized again, turned back into water and fell on
the earth and flooded the earth in a massive flood. All this...all this tectonic plate activity
colliding...these plates colliding, pushing up mountains and all of that, can be traced back to the
Flood.
In Matthew chapter 2 verses 37 to 39 it refers to the Flood there. And it uses the Greek word
kataklusmos, the word cataclysm. It literally, totally rearranged the surface of the earth and engulfed
the entire earth in water. And that massive hydraulic cataclysm is what produced the extinction of
many animals instantaneously frankly, or over the periods of the days when it rained, and created this
world-wide death that produced the fossils.
Second Peter 3 talks about how God destroyed the whole earth, verse 6, by flooding it with water.
That one great world cataclysm produced the ice caps, produced the Ice Age, and explains the
fossils. And there's much more on that that you can read for yourself. There's an immense amount
of scientific material on the Flood and its cataclysmic impact on the earth.
So, we ask the question...when did this happen? When did all of this...how do we...if we don't need
ages and ages and ages and ages and billions and billions of years to form fossils...and by the way,
that generally won't do it. I mean, if you take the bones of your dead bird and put them in the back
yard, how long will it take before they become a fossil? They'll never become a fossil. The ground
would have to open up and crush those bones and hold them there for you to have some kind of a
fossil. There has to be cataclysm to create that kind of thing, such as we have already seen in the
sediments and the bones that are found, for example, in the terrain surrounding Mount St.
Helens...which kind of a cataclysm has the same dramatic effect as would appear to a
uniformitarianist, would have had to occur over millions and millions and millions of years. So the
Flood answers the problem of fossils and sediment and the rearrangement of the surface of the earth.
All legitimate science, frankly, points back to the great cataclysm.

(The above is starting from the bottom of page #10 of the PDF)

The How, Why, and When of Creation, Part 1
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-211

(Also this is good, from the begining of the first part of the PDF)

In past weeks we've tried to show that evolution is not scientific. Evolution is not reasonable. Evolution is impossible and irrational. We've been saying that there has never been one shred of evidence that matter on any level chemically can or will, can or will organize itself all by itself. Even when energized, let alone organizing itself by itself upward to viable life and continually higher life, and finally reaching human life, there has never been one shred of evidence that matter does that, or can do that.

It was over a hundred years ago that Louis Pasteur proved that spontaneous biogenesis cannot occur. A cell cannot increase its complexity. A cell cannot add information necessary in its DNA, or its genetic code, to take itself to a higher level. That is impossible. It has never been done, it has never been seen.

Nothing mutates upward. In fact, natural selection, which was a phrase that Darwin leaned on, natural selection, or the process of change or mutation is always downward, never upward. Individual lifes who vary too much from the center of the species go downward, the law of entropy. Thus, mutants don't improve the species, they are a decline. Inevitably they die at the cellular level. Natural selection then is only downward, not upward, and natural selection actually prevents evolution from taking place. No species is capable of moving up. It can decrease itself by a decrease in its information by some inotropic event that sends it into disorganization, but it cannot increase what it is because it cannot come across new information.

It is true that species die out. There are frankly millions of species that have died out in this world. And there are thousands, they tell us, that become extinct every day. There were more species than there are now. There were species in the past that we don't have today, such as dinosaurs. There may well have been other kinds of apes and other kinds of mammals as species, as well as insects and birds and snakes and creatures of the sea and all of that, that have died out and they may look like there are links between various species, but there has never been one shred of proof that one kind of species can become another, let alone a higher kind of life. What appears to be some kind of intermediate link found in some kind of vertebrae field or fossil field, may be nothing other than just an ancient species that went out of existence, as they do by the thousands all the time.

Evolution with its theory of chaos and its theory of unintelligent matter existing in random features, organizing itself by chance into highly complex forms and ultimately to the level of human intelligence and personality, is so preposterous and so impossible, and so scientifically inaccurate that no honest person could believe it. Evolution is a violation of all that modern science knows to be true.

On the other hand, we don't need evolution to explain anything because we just read how it happened in Genesis 1:1. Inorganic matter cannot organize itself upward to become organic matter. Organic matter cannot organize itself by random features to become more complex and ultimately reach the level of human intelligence and personality. That can't and doesn't happen.

Well people ask...and this is a very popular view today...but, "Couldn't God...we acknowledge God, we acknowledge a creator, but couldn't God have used evolution after creating the original matter? Couldn't God have used evolution in the sense of theistic evolution?" No, God couldn't have used evolution because evolution is impossible. Evolution assumes that matter can organize itself upward by itself.

A.E. Wilder Smith, a brilliant scientist who has done some literally ground-breaking work on this subject and who is a staunch creationist, wrote, "The necessary information to build man does not reside in the few elements it takes to compose him," end quote. You cannot explain man even by the components that he can be reduced to in a lab. Genetic information cannot come from nowhere. Genetic information cannot rise spontaneously, nor does matter itself operate itself into organizing itself in to some higher level of complexity. Well, you get the message.

Everything requires information from the outside. Intelligence is critical to all matter and all energy, information from an intelligent life-giving source, namely God. There shouldn't be any question about how the universe came into existence, it is clearly answered right in verse 1 of the Bible.

And I believe, I think it's accurate to say that if there was a theory other than evolution, except divine creation, if there was something other than divine creation or evolution, scientists would line up to get it. Scientists would gladly take a more rational explanation or a rational explanation than to continue to postulate evolution, but they don't have any alternative except divine creation. And that is intolerable to sinful man because the creator is also the moral authority of the universe and the judge of all men. Evolution doesn't make any sense at all. On the other hand, the Bible does...


(And a little lower from the PDF)

The whole of creation, folks, was over on the sixth day. And the Bible, and this is very important to note, the Bible always speaks of creation as a past event. Mark that in your mind. The Bible always speaks of creation as a past event. Evolution speaks of creation as continuing, right? It's always going on. That's never how the Bible refers to creation. Hebrews 4:3 says, "His works were finished from the foundation of the world." Hebrews 4:10, "For the One who has entered His rest has Himself also rested from His works." The Bible always views creation as completed and finished. It is a past event. God finished creation, never adding to that original creation. On the seventh day He rested from creation and He's continued to rest from creation.

You say, "What's He doing now?" Not creation, conservation. You want to get the flow? Creation, Genesis...conservation, He upholds all things by the word of His power. Millennial Kingdom, restoration, when He restores the earth as we know it in the universe back to its edenic, or near edenic character. So you have creation, conservation, restoration...finally, recreation is the new heaven and the new earth. But creation is a past event. Conservation is a present one. Restoration is a future millennial one. And recreation is the new heaven and the new earth. The creation work, that's past, and the Bible always speaks of creation as a past event. It is not an on-going event. Evolution demands on-going transition, even theistic evolutionists who say they believe the Bible have the evolutionary process of necessity going on and going on and going on and ostensibly bringing new things to life...

...ad nauseum!*<((:-{>
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 17, 2012 - 10:14am PT
Base:

After a brief stint as an urban planner, my best friend from HS became a marketer for a subcontractor for spooks. He was good at it. He used to quip that his business was death and destruction, but anyone could see that the work ate at him like a cancer. He fell into drinking, living on his boat alone, with one of the most hollow and cynical views of life and women as I ever met. He was found floating face down next to his boat one morning a few years back. There was a symmetry in that outcome. I wonder what the difference was between him and you.

Be well.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 17, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
If I have a problem, it's with what people do with them or make of them, that's all

Point made. Thx

I wonder what the difference was between him and you [Base]

Wow. Hope it is enormous. (which I think it is)

;>)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 17, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
Yes, of course.

I loved my friend. With me he was wonderful.

Deep melancholy seems like a cold or flu to me. It just hangs about a person. Wasn't there some cartoon characters who always had little storm clouds directly over their heads, raining on them no matter where they went?

Karma?
pa

climber
Dec 17, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
A question mostly for Mr. Cochrane, who shows deep interest in wildlife, as well as in the sciences.

Speaking of the scientific method and its applications...what do you make of this:

We collar wildlife to understand their movements, habits ect. in a objective way.

The collaring process is extremely traumatic to the wildlife...picture what it takes to chase, say, bighorn sheep with a helicopter,( in their habitat, which is typically steep and full of cliffs) throw a net on them, then, if they survive tumbling down the mountainside for a few hundred yards, cobble them, stick them with needles, and put one (or two) heavy thick collars on them with 3 lb. batteries attached, which they will have to wear, even as they lock horns with their rivals, until they die...

Then, observe their "normal" movements and the way they react to human intrusion.

Would you expect them to behave "normally" after such an experience?
Would a human behave "normally" after such an experience? Our veterans might have a comment or two on this...

Sooo, notwithstanding delicate feelings of sympathy for the poor four-legged sods, how accurate IS the information we gather by using this method?






healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 17, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
pa: ...how accurate IS the information we gather by using this method?

Is there any specific point to that question? And as opposed to no data? Also, most collars have drop-off options and those that don't are typically long-term collars, expensive, and most see attempts to retrieve them. Beyond that wildlife act instinctively and almost all will return to their pre-capture activities as they know nothing else.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 17, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
re: worldworks, different worldworks theories
re: good and evil theory
re: "Papa, why do bad things happen?"
re: ethical responsibilities

It's interesting to compare these two "narratives" or views...

(1) Reverend Anne Richards (this morning on CBS This Morning)

"People want to know they don't live in a meaningless world... Bad things happen to good people all the time. I think that it is important for people to understand that God is not in control of the world. The world is not a puppet stage with God pulling the strings above it to make sure bad things don't happen to us. It's just not the way the world works. God created the universe, set the universe free, we're free human beings and the price for our freedom is suffering and evil."

(2) Sam Harris (2011 debate with Rabbi David Wolpe)

"I think we should think about what this concept of the afterlife does. Just to give some context: We're living in a world in which 9 million children, every year, die before they reach the age of five. Year after year after year. That is an Asian-style tsunami of the sort you remember from 2004, every 10 days — killing only children before the age of five. Think about these children, think about their parents. Know that virtually all these parents are people who believe in God, and were praying all the while that their children would be saved — and their prayers were not answered. Now, the afterlife comes into the midst of this reality, and as a promise that all of this is gonna make sense in the end — that somehow at that the end of existence, we’re going to be let in on the punch line and have a mighty laugh with almighty God for eternity. Now, there is no evidence of that and therefore I think that this concept of the afterlife really functions as a substitute for wisdom. It functions as a substitute for really absorbing our predicament, which is that... everyone is gonna die; there are circumstances that are just catastrophically unfair; evil sometimes wins and injustice sometimes wins; and the only justice we’re going to find in the world is the justice we make. And I think we have an ethical responsibility to absorb this, really, down to the soles of our feet. And this notion of the afterlife, the happy talk about how it’s all going to work out and that it’s all a part of God’s plan, is a way of shirking that responsibility."



Fair to say, it is a battle between conflicting narratives or theories.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 17, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
go-B im very intrigued by you. And i thank the Lord everytime i read
your posts. do you want to go climbing sometime? im in Josh. pm me.

Your last post is very ligetimate to me! i've never really been concerned
about the evolution-Creation debate,until recently. Seems like its being
provoked in my spirit. im not sure why? But my logical mind is being freshend by my recent studies on this debate..

Something thats funny to me is; in the evolutionist theory of, mutation
to a "higher being", or growing to a "higher conscienceness", and
"the strong will preceed". ALL these ideas of evolving into something
BETTER. When you actually look around, these people are doing SO much
harm to themselves! Physicaly, mentaly, and spiritualy. Their killing
themselves on one hand. And their preaching survival of the fittest
on the other.. Sad thing IS they dont even reconize it.

i guess its not that funny. Its actually very sad

i Hope you have a Very Blessed Holiday!
BB
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 17, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
pa
Dec 17, 2012 - 07:04pm PT

A question mostly for Mr. Cochrane, who shows deep interest in wildlife, as well as in the sciences.

Speaking of the scientific method and its applications...what do you make of this:

We collar wildlife to understand their movements, habits ect. in a objective way.

The collaring process is extremely traumatic to the wildlife...picture what it takes to chase, say, bighorn sheep with a helicopter,( in their habitat, which is typically steep and full of cliffs) throw a net on them, then, if they survive tumbling down the mountainside for a few hundred yards, cobble them, stick them with needles, and put one (or two) heavy thick collars on them with 3 lb. batteries attached, which they will have to wear, even as they lock horns with their rivals, until they die...

Then, observe their "normal" movements and the way they react to human intrusion.

Would you expect them to behave "normally" after such an experience?
Would a human behave "normally" after such an experience? Our veterans might have a comment or two on this...

Sooo, notwithstanding delicate feelings of sympathy for the poor four-legged sods, how accurate IS the information we gather by using this method?
te Here

i happen to be lucky enough to know John Wehausen at UC White Mountain Research Station in Bishop CA

it would be hard to find someone more dedicated to the welfare of the mountain sheep, and he spends much of his time observing them from a polite distance

John is incredibly fit and can pretty much keep up with them going up hill(his wife is a medical doctor and serious contender in cross country ski competitions)

and yes, he does catch them for tagging, with a net that is launched over their heads with rockets, i've helped him prepare the net

i don't particularly agree with this method, just because it is so invasive and traumatic for the animals

however as a USFWS employee, i have also participated in similar tagging of pelicans, ducks, and loons; and we have certainly learned a lot of interesting things by doing this, that would be very challenging to learn otherwise...

fortunately the cameras and satellite tracking devices have been rapidly shrinking in size

i think John feels the approach that i have used with deer is invasive and unscientific ...i.e. gaining their trust and joining the herd and hanging out as one of them...as we dodge hunters and dogs and kids through their well designed maze in the woods...

i disagree with the idea of 'wild' animals in a 'natural' environment...

so called wilderness in the Americas has always been a managed environment with humans as a key managing species...arriving Europeans failed to see and understand this until recently...

unfortunately we can no longer reconsider our role and become stewards of the land...everything has been severely damaged by the hands of our greedy and domineering European-based 'society'

our mission, should we choose to accept it, is to repair the ecosystems of our dying planet before it dies
...
the animal people are our brothers and sisters and i do not agree with the idea that they are inferior creatures who only act instinctively

however i agree they pretty much rejoin their herd and habit patterns, although heavily affected by their traumatic experience...just as you would if abducted by 'aliens'...

we should treat them with appropriate respect


a more interesting question has to do with a young woman biologist in Bishop,whose name escapes me, who is similarly dedicated to the welfare of the regions mountain lions.

the managed increase in mountain lion population resulted about 15 years ago in the complete destruction of the southern Owens Valley herd of Mountain Sheep

inspiring a polite discussion between these two field biologists as to what constitutes 'letting nature take its course' and what responsibilities we have for intrusive 'scientific management'
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 18, 2012 - 04:17am PT
Anticipation brings rejoicing,
I'm another day closer to being before my God!
But enough about me,
Have you made peace with God through our blessed Lord Jesus Christ,
It's closer then YOU think???
pa

climber
Dec 18, 2012 - 05:45am PT
M. Cochrane,
thank you for answering and for discussing the dilemma that sparked my question in the first place...namely, how valid are the conclusions we draw by way of our scientific method, if that very method alters the scenarios (and behaviors) we are observing?
As you said, the animals are "heavily affected by their traumatic experience". Indeed, field observations on the Bishop bighorn herd of Pine Creek are pointing to a change in where and how far they bolt after spotting humans approaching: before collaring became extensive, they would only run a few hundred yards. Now, with over half the herd collared, they are going several miles up canyon, even though weather and feed are not favorable to such movement.

I bring up the question because there is discussion here in Bishop as to climber impact on the Pine Creek herd, now that new routes are being established at a fast pace.
Everybody agrees that the data provided by radar tracking is very interesting. However, it seems difficult to establish whether climbers have more impact, or whether the collaring is a bigger factor.

One can hope that, in the future, more sophisticated and less invasive tracking methods will be available.
In the meantime, it is important to question...not just our methods, but also, the premises that underlie them.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 18, 2012 - 06:41am PT



Because I never get tired of hear this stuff...
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