Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 11761 - 11780 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 16, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
You can't answer the question if you don't know what fraction of t it takes to flip the coin.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 16, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
Go-B has been a polite member of this thread for ages. I say that he is more than welcome, but I admit to scrolling past the scripture. It is too long...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 16, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
Credit: TomCochrane


This is an image of magnetic loops on the sun, captured by NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory (SDO). It has been processed to highlight the edges of each loop to make the structure more clear.

A series of loops such as this is known as a flux rope, and these lie at the heart of eruptions on the sun known as coronal mass ejections (CMEs.) This is the first time scientists were able to discern the timing of a flux rope's formation. (Blended 131 Angstrom and 171 Angstrom images of July 19, 2012 flare and CME.)

Image Credit: NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center/SDO

jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 16, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
. . . you don't know what fraction of t it takes to flip the coin

Assume the flip is instantaneous. The process generates the sequence I gave above, even though it occurs in a finite time span. The sequence does not converge, meaning that the question posed cannot be answered in a "yes" or "no" fashion ("heads" or "tails")

Zeno contours are also generated in a finite time span, and sometimes convergence happens while in other instances the sequence diverges. Divergence itself is either divergence to infinity (less troublesome) or divergence by oscillation (like the coin flipping)
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 16, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Assume the flip is instantaneous.
Then he should have specified a ultra high speed transistor.

If the flip time is non instantaneous does the sequence end?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 16, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
Then he should have specified a ultra high speed transistor.
If the flip time is non instantaneous does the sequence end?

This is not a computer programming problem (not computable) - it exhibits zeno behavior - rather a divertissement in mathematics. The old saying is "in a computer all sequences converge" - simply means every program ultimately stops, if for no other reason than decay of the machine. To that extent the answer to the flipping problem is somewhat arbitrary.

Here's a genuine (mathematical) paradox, however, that is intriguing:

Paradoxes of Length
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 16, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
This is not a computer programming problem (not computable)
Which is why I posed a variation.
MH2

climber
Feb 16, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
I simply meant that jogill's question did answer the question about the coin flipping sequence and elegantly at that.

Malemute, there are a few differences between what we find in physics and what we find in mathematics. The coin flipping is just a way to represent a geometric series.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 17, 2013 - 12:35am PT
it is very likely that space-time is quantized, at some level it no longer exists as a continuum

Yes, I hate to admit it. It's more fun to play with a (possibly hypothetical) continuum! Although, of course, my zeno contours are realized only in a finite and discrete sense. But the theory tells me they converge to a continuous flow. On paper at least! On the other hand it is difficult to imagine the very first step along the path for an infinite n.

;>)
WBraun

climber
Feb 17, 2013 - 01:03am PT
When you get to the point where math ends and real life begins you can see the archer, the arrow, and the target all as one but simultaneously different .....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 17, 2013 - 01:17am PT
"This presents Zeno's problem not with finding the sum, but rather with finishing a task with an infinite number of steps: how can one ever get from A to B, if an infinite number of (non-instantaneous) events can be identified that need to precede the arrival at B, and one cannot reach even the beginning of a "last event"?"
Wiki
__

Once you name points A to B, or any TWO points. don't you finite your infinity?

You cant reach the "last event" because he's discarded motion.
___

imagine the very first step along the path for an infinite n.

It's hard to imagine the "first step" for an infinite "anything". Feels more like we have one foot on the ground, in mid stride. Not sure where to put down the next foot..
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 17, 2013 - 01:42am PT
Go-B has been a polite member of this thread for ages. I say that he is more than welcome, but I admit to scrolling past the scripture. It is too long...

Agreed, and it is not at all my intent to cause him to stop posting and leave the forum. He seems like a gentleman and a scholar. I would certainly prefer him to express his own experiences and views and not just quote scripture. Unfortunately he has not posted anything since and has disabled member-to-member emails. If someone else here has a way of contacting him, please extend my thoughts and apologies.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2013 - 11:38am PT
might seem true for someone who doesn't understand or honor the cycle of life and death

however

dead leaves and other vegetation are not 'trash', as in when they fall in the Fall

these are not really 'dead' in the sense you understand, merely experiencing a relatively dormant phase change, and constituting an essential part of the cycle of life

to treat this material as 'trash' is a subversion of the human role as caretakers of the earth and depletes the soil and breaks the cycle of life and death

in the winter season, leaves and vegetative debris cover the ground, providing insulation and generating warmth through microbial decay, and enriching the soil

in the spring, 'life' springs anew from this 'dead' material...
Tom Cochrane
Wow Tom
I'm working at the highest level of plant cultivation, not with some dead leaves in winter

I was talking hyperbolically
But I will elaborate

The varying degrees of death in plants
1) some plants are completely rotted, and not a single cell of the plant is still alive
2) some plants have lost their meristem, some cells are still alive, but it would take an in-lab cell culture to revive plant growth
3) some plants have rotted or been disfigured by bugs to such a degree, that they will never look presentable for another 20 years, that they are not worth keeping
4) some plants have rotted stems and roots and are not able to restart a root system,

So the stated premise was:

dead or not recoverable..
Some plants are completely dead. Some are not completely dead, and there are still living cells that could be revived and the plant could be regrown (recovered) with considerable work on my part to revive it. In theory, a whole plant can be regrown from just one living cell, but it takes alot more to do it a pot.

But: and here is the kicker

They are all considered DEAD once they hit the Trash Bin, because that's the end for any living or dead material.
They will never come back to life.


But since I have 1000s of plants, 150 a year doesn't even enter into consideration, it just makes more room for new plants!




cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 17, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 17, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
go-B,

Take a break for a short time, but don't stay away for long. I look forward to you posts and reading the word of G-d. It's like refreshing rain for a parched desert.

Even when these non-believers complain and whine, the word of G-d gets in through the cracks and crevasses of their hard hearts. His word will not return void.

Can't do it without you brother. Come back soon.


Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn's Unapologetic Prophetic Message to America Goes Viral
12:30PM EST 2/6/2013 ALTHEA THOMPSON

http://www.charismanews.com/us/38133-jonathan-cahns-unapologetic-prophetic-message-to-america-goes-viral

The Presidential Inaugural Prayer message by Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn on January 21, 2013:
http://youtu.be/1mhRBOKb_6I

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 17, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
This goes without saying... but jogill is awesome!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 17, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
He makes me all giggly and squishy, too.

Godel, Escher, Bach is five pounds of recursive loops. When finished with that one, it was obvious that Bach was a genius, Escher was cool, and I have no idea what that Godel guy was saying....
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 17, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
The ancients were puzzled by the fact that the set of counting numbers could be placed in one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of these numbers, implying there were no more natural numbers than the squares of natural numbers, for instance. Hence there was the same "number" of numbers in each collection.

But were you aware that there are the same "number" of points on the line segment from 0 to 1 as there are in the three-dimensional unit cube sitting above that line segment? For example a point in 3-space has the coordinates x= .9071543... , y= .21212121..., z= .73412695... and the point on the line segment from 0 to 1 corresponding to it is .927013724111522...

There is a one-to-one correspondence here, see what it is? Can this idea be extended to N-space?

What Ed was alluding to: A chronon is a proposed quantum of time, that is, a discrete and indivisible "unit" of time as part of a theory that proposes that time is not continuous. While time is a continuous quantity in both standard quantum mechanics and general relativity, many physicists have suggested that a discrete model of time might work, especially when considering the combination of quantum mechanics with general relativity to produce a theory of quantum gravity (Wikipedia)

As an old mathematician whose area was complex analysis I would rather this not be true! (there is a discrete analysis but the traditional one involves continuity)

;>)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 18, 2013 - 01:48am PT
Over the last few months, our fellow climber, Dr. Ed H., has introduced basically the same idea in several different ways, first with quantum mechanics, and secondly, with Hilbert space.

The crux of Ed’s thesis is (so far as I can tell) encapsulated in these short paragraphs.

“The main point is . . . that we depend on models to guide our thinking on physical theory and explanation, but those models, once they have served their purpose, often become irrelevant, or at worse, misleading.

"Such is the state of quantum mechanics. We "understand" quantum mechanics from the point of view that we can calculate the outcome of an experiment with amazing accuracy, but we might get hung up in Hilbert space, if we try to imagine that it is a part of the "real world." It doesn't have to be...

...but by focusing on those models, and taking them seriously as more than what they are, a model, allows for the creation of a straw man that can be easily knocked down... “

Here we have the assertion that we can adopt various models, numerical constructs (Hilbert space), and so forth, that allow us to predict with amazing accuracy, what will transpire in the material world. Ed goes on to state that the model or construct need not be "part of the real world,” but is only a tool that works. That is, the models and constructs do not perfectly represent or describe “reality,” much as a topo of the Salathe Wall, and the paper it is written on, is not, itself, the “real” granite route on El Cap.

Put differently, the value of the topo is in imparting practical information to assist our ascent of the Big Stone. Hilbert space can in turn be viewed as part of a methodology allowing scientists to chart and predict various things in time and space. A good topo works wonderfully, as do QM theories and Hilbert Space. But if we say that any of these tools or constructs are themselves mirror images of reality, or that, say, the Salathea topo contains the essential make up of the Salathe Wall, our claim is soon shot down.

I trust Ed will correct my misrepresentations, but the basic idea is well stated in the quotes, from Ed himself, and their meaning seems pretty self evident.

I mention this because it is one case where I actually agree with Ed in a fundamental way, though he might not agree with where I am going with it.

People on this thread, usually back channel, often ask me what the hell I am really driving at with what often seems like double talk. What am I really saying that happens with eyes open meditation, or during so-called “boundary experiences” reported here by John Gill and many others? These experiences have nothing to do with biblical doctrine, but some have the the tone and texture of religious experiences – whatever that means.

I believe part of the answer is just this. I have mentioned left and right brain functioning simply as examples of the different ways our minds work that everyone can vouchsafe for themselves. Everyone dreams, has ideas, feelings etc. that spring into their head from who knows where, and we all have non-linear experiences where time has little meaning. Experiences that are not themselves rational, but which also are not irrational or remotely wu wu. We have experiences that are not themselves extrusions from our rational minds. But they nonetheless are real – in many cases, they are experienced as more real than most of our passing lives, because boundary experiences come with a robust sense of presence lacking in our mundane moments.

Anyhow, what happens in mediation, especially eyes open meditation, which retards mental drifting and “states,” is that as beginners, we get bombarded with instructions to leave the mind alone, just let it go, and watch your breath and so forth. Eventually we get some separation from the constant grinding of our evaluating mind and can start actually watching it operate and intrude and comment on everything that enters our field of awareness. This is often our first realization that we are not our rational minds, rather our presence and awareness is abiding with it, sans separation. In other words, there is more than rational, discursive thought. It's just one very loud voice that we often mistake for "us."

Then slowly – or slowly for most of us – we start realizing that our rational mind does not necessarily serve up a perfect representation of the “real world,” rather it formulates and constitutes the chaos into patterns that allows us to master, to lesser or greater extents, the surrounding material world. It also is all-or-nothing in WHAT it ingests or computes, that being material, stuff, persons, places and things. And in this sense, the rational mind "works" in a very reliable and predictable way so long as we are "normal."

The next realization is that the rational mind is almost certainly an evolved cognitive tool that “works” and secures our survival in the physical world - but it is only a tool, an evolutionary “Hilbert Space” that does not capture reality per se, but casts the undifferentiated flux into forms that we can work with. However, getting back to Ed, the discursive mind serves a purpose – deal with the material world. If we ask it to do more, it’s output "becomes irrelevant, or at worse, misleading.”

That is, when we mistake rational thought for reality, in total, we have done with cognition what Ed warned us not to do with constructs and models - mistaking them for reality itself, as opposed to a working model or limited construct.

The question then becomes: If the rational mind is a tool, an interpretation, providing a limited and materialistically biased but remarkably practical and useful POV of “reality,” then by what other means can we encounter and embrace the undifferentiated flux or soup – neat, with no chaser.

How do we come to encounter reality itself?

JL
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 18, 2013 - 03:37am PT
They are all considered DEAD once they hit the Trash Bin, because that's the end for any living or dead material.
They will never come back to life.

Well, there is certainly some truth to this statement, considering you are condemning this otherwise viable biological material to a toxic chemical and pharmaceutical cesspool and to be buried for geologic time...

not only quite dead, but quite evil to thus treat what may have once been precious to you...based upon the beautiful pictures you share with us...

The varying degrees of death in plants
1) some plants are completely rotted, and not a single cell of the plant is still alive
2) some plants have lost their meristem, some cells are still alive, but it would take an in-lab cell culture to revive plant growth
3) some plants have rotted or been disfigured by bugs to such a degree, that they will never look presentable for another 20 years, that they are not worth keeping
4) some plants have rotted stems and roots and are not able to restart a root system,


consider degrees of dead as in rich vegetative topsoil ready to feed the growth of young plants

vs the toxic chemical cesspool of a landfill


or


consider dead, as in a green salad served to you in a fine restaurant

vs. slimy rotting cabbage flung into a mine tailings pond



hold one in one hand and the other in the other hand and let me know how your own body feels about it...
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