Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:41am PT


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*+++411!!!*+++411!!!*+++411!!!*+++411!!!*+++411!!!*+++411!!!*
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
Postpositivists believe that a reality exists, like positivists do, though they hold that it can be known only imperfectly and probabilistically.

That's hardly a satisfying account of reality. Both "imperfectly and probabilistically" are heuristics.

You say most folks are "beyond Polyani" and now post-positivists? Do you find fault with Polanyi's ideas? If so, where?

One of the monikers of liberal thought was supposed to be allowing room for other points of view. While folks here tend to advocate liberal content (science and its findings), their attitudes and tolerance sometimes seem particularly conservative. It's a paradox in some way.




(Pointing to URLs, writers, thinkers alone (appeal to authority) or to what "everyone knows" (argumentum ad populum) are logical fallacies.)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
Go-b, so you've established Jesus is the way - so again, does that mean any of the christian faiths in the chart above will suffice - all are equal?

You really kind of have to pity poor Werner, what with being left out in the salvational cold and all.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:11pm PT
Do you find fault with Polanyi's ideas?

Polanyi has a point of view, one among many. It's not so much a 'fault' as folks taking a different point of view than him. Maybe that's better expressed as it is up on hmolpedia:

hmolpedia: “Whenever we encounter a clash of ontologies attempting to explain the mind-body relationship, the issue of emergence is always in the background, if not actually the central issue of the debate. Materialists claim, for example, that consciousness emerges through evolution from insentient matter; emanationists idealists say that multiplicity of forms emerge from the onvolution of spirit; the panexperientialists say that different qualities of experience and consciousness evolve and emerge at different levels of complexity; whereas only dualists avoid the issue of emergence altogether because for them the mind belongs in a completely different ontological domain.

Polanyi: “We know more than we can tell.”

He and Tom appear to be of the same mind...
MH2

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Whenever we encounter a clash of ontologies attempting to explain the mind-body relationship


Yeah, I hate it when that happens. The injured. The traffic jam around it.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
The Bush-era CIA: http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/dec/13/cia-tortured-sodomised-terror-suspect

"CIA 'tortured and sodomised' terror suspect, human rights court rules. Landmark European court of human rights judgment says CIA tortured wrongly detained German citizen"
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
healyje

Dec 12, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
Tom: ...are not going to provide us with ultimate understanding.

Curious if you think there is such an understanding to be had. I can certainly understand and empathize with a desire for such (and think that longing is what religion exploits). But I personally suspect what's under the hood past a certain point is an expansive event horizon of the unknowable. That's looking outward, but my experiences looking inward have left me surmising much the same in that direction.

Healyje, i agree with your statements above. When i attempt to extend my awareness past a certain point, there is indeed an expansive event horizon of the unknownable...at least unknowable from my current level of knowledge, skills, and abilities...

but then i watch Alex, Hans, Dean, Mayan, Libby and their peers...and what they do seems quite unknowable to me in spite of my years of devotion to climbing...and yet it certainly doesn't seem unknowable to them!

so, yes, i do think such an understanding can occur...

and i know there are other beings who are much farther along in this regard than myself...the part that seems unknowable to me at this point is just how much farther this understanding might be along the scale of expanding awareness and knowledge...a bit like how far i can run down the beach vs the distance to remote galaxies...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
language is our ability to create matter from consciousnesses.

i think this is a wonderful statement, and i could not agree more

i wish i had heard this one long ago

the statement i've been using for a long time is less simple for people to grasp: that our thoughts have power, so take responsibility for your thoughts

one of the powerful ways to do this is by visualization, which certainly applies well to adventure sports as well as most fields of endeavor

visualize what you are trying to do before you try to do it


as a management consultant and project director, i've often described this as my 'castle in the sky theory'

if you dream up a castle in the sky, that's probably about where it will remain, unsupported up in the clouds

but if you dream it up completely and communicate it well, including the realization that people really want such a castle, and the architecture of the walls, and exact design of the drawbridge mechanism, and the source of water for the moat and for drinking, and how you feed the inhabitants and dispose of their waste products...

then a hill seems to rise up magically under your dream castle and people come up the hill carrying stones and asking where each stone should be stacked

that's the way i've managed the teams for all my systems designs

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
Ed Hartouni

Dec 12, 2012 - 12:41am PT
i am trying to make a distinction between mathematical descriptions of these structural relationships vs the basic nature of the physical world

how do you propose to make such a distinction?
why do you think it is meaningful to do so?

mathematics is a way to describe the "basic nature of the physical world" just as words do.

well, to my feeble mind this seems sort of like the core essence of this thread, and why i suggested we drop the use of some of the more contentious terms upon which we can't seem to reach agreement...

if i was sufficiently wise and eloquent to answer this question, that answer might actually put a cap on a lot of the discussion

i can't, but am trying to formulate the questions in ways that further creative discussion rather than additional contentious disagreements, as i am convinced there are things to understand that are not being addressed by the sciences

sometimes i try to use the analogy of studying the states and wave mechanics of water vs the experience of surfing Mavericks...and no disrespect intended to the CFD wizards


i think about the way NASA approaches human space travel...analyze everything to death and then way beyond that...train the crew in incredibly controlled environments, practicing every imaginable scenario endlessly...extend the control of those training environments into the actual operational scenarios...then watch in frustration as even the most experienced crews struggle to deal with the actual non-intuitive experiences in space and unanticipated coffin corners

i try to imagine how NASA would approach the mission of climbing El Capitan, something i've been trying for years to get the Houston Mission Ops division to take seriously...can you imagine how some of our leading climbers would react to such supervision?

the Russian crews have a special way of dealing with some of this(Warren Harding would have enthusiastically endorsed this)...ordered by ground controllers to do something now now now...they reply back, no, now is not a good time...to the incredible frustration of the over-controlling flight controllers!

some time later in the orbital progression they call back down with vodka slurred voices, saying, ok, now is a good time...

i am not suggesting that vodka is essential to understanding or that we should practice sloppy science; just that perhaps a relaxation of some analytical confines might allow revelation of wonders that are obscured by our otherwise conscientiously rigorous analysis and insistence on repeatability tests of unique and unrepeatable examples
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 14, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
TomC: 'i don't think that mathematical descriptions are adequate for full understanding'

JoGill:
I'm not sure what a full understanding really means, Tom, but there are some physical principles that challenge normal logical discourse and are "understandable" through mathematics. Which begs the question, does math - an extension of logic through symbols - actually underlie in some sense the very fabric of the universe.

Math is sometimes called the queen of the sciences, but of course is not really a science comparable to physics and chemistry.

i am certainly not enough of a mathematician be a proper judge on this, but i agree with this view and from my level of understanding it does seem that mathematical constructs do underlay the very fabric of the universe. From my perceptions it appears to be an infinite fractal geometry Mandelbrot Diagram

attempting to grasp the significance of this is beyond all levels of being astounded



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
Tom: i try to imagine...

Tom: attempting to grasp...

I understand the feeling or belief there is something - a whole universe of possibility - just outside our grasp. I, like you and most folks here, occasionally get lucky and do manage to pull a rabbit out of my hat (or ass). At those times it does feel like having been 'tapped in' to something larger and grand for just an instant. But to me it's like living as we do in the physical world in an incredibly thin blue envelope between space and the earth - only in our heads, it's a thin, bright conscious layer between those internal and external event horizons of the unknowable.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 14, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
I'm not sure what a full understanding really means, Tom, but there are some physical principles that challenge normal logical discourse and are "understandable" through mathematics. Which begs the question, does math - an extension of logic through symbols - actually underlie in some sense the very fabric of the universe.

Math is sometimes called the queen of the sciences, but of course is not really a science comparable to physics and chemistry.


"Underlie"? My sense is that math "Overlays" the fabric..

Math is a logical language to predict matter in time and space.

Anytime we take a measurement, each proceeding measurement will NOT be exactly the same.

The math that takes our Shuttle to Mars, changes every second.And must be adjusted every second. Primarally from the unseen forces caused through
the laws of Physics.

These "Laws", suchas Gravity are the True underlieing "fabric" of the universe.

Numbers seem pretty silly today though. Compared to what happened in Conneticut.. those actions are more true than 1 + 1 = 2
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:00am PT
Polanyi: “We know more than we can tell.”

So do you, Healyje, assuming you have some deep understanding of any topic or practice.

Find an expert on anything where expertise is recognized. Attempt to capture their nuanced understanding so that you can mimic (ala turing test) their decisions and behaviors in a system.

If you want the hard test, answer Chomsky's challenge: list all of the sentence that a human being can construct. Ok, easier: list all of the rules of grammar so that you can stipulate how any sentence would be grammatical.

Again, if you have a specific issue with Polanyi, then I'd like to hear it specifically. The posting from hmolpedia is unresponsive in my book (ignoratio elenchi).
MH2

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:06am PT
Tom,

You perceive and feel things keenly and intensely. I've known a few other people with what I think of as sensitive antennae, picking up signals I don't. It can be difficult for them when they come up against the normalizing influences of society.

To get acceptance of new ideas you have to figure out where your out-of-the-ordinary perceptions connect to something we already know. Walk around some corner in your mind and see a new relationship.

Some of the talk in this thread looks to me like when eccentrics used to try to square the circle (impossible) or prove Fermat's Last Theorem (haha!). In that sense I see mathematics underlying at least this thread. Perhaps not the Universe.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:20am PT
If mathematics describes something in the universe, then why doesn't religion, or art, or narratives, or the gibberish of infants, or tea leaves at the bottom of a cup, or the rantings of deranged fools, or Plato's writings?


The Law of the Small Instrument: give a child a hammer, and you will find that everything he encounters needs hammering.

The problem lies not in mathematics, but what folks make of the results of mathematics. Think of a question, any question. My answer is, "2." Your response is, "Two WHAT?" The issue always lies in the interpretation, not the number.

Mathematics is only a problem when scholars or expert practitioners become enamored with the elegance of mathematics. Then the beauty of mathematics becomes an end in itself. Indeed, mathematics can be beautiful, but beauty is not truth.


EDIT: Some time ago, I worked as an institutional broker for a primary government securities dealer. My area was options and futures. Lots of well-accepted math modeling and statistics that looked good, but . . . . well, you know how it turned out in the mortgage and banking communities, and for millions of mortgage holders. There might be 10-20 people on the planet who understand how an option on an option might behave theoretically. And then there is the real world. I'm a little over-sold on the value of "smart people." Seen them, been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

WBraun

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:44am PT
but beauty is not truth.


The impersonalists ultimately say this: "beauty is not truth".

But I'll say .... "beauty IS truth" .......
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:51am PT
O Attic shape! fair attitude! with brede
Of marble men and maidens overwrought,
With forest branches and the trodden weed;
Thou, silent form! dost tease us out of thought
As doth eternity: Cold Pastoral!
When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st,
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'


Keats : from "Ode on a Grecian Urn"
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:20am PT
Luke 4:14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region. 15 And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Beautiful!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:05am PT
^^^^^ go-B YES!

The Truth from The Father of Creation is SO Beautifull!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:09am PT
So is that supposed to be answer to the question will any christian sect suffice.
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