Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 11, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
I don't listen to Go-b much, but I like his Boss!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
^^^ too funny.. self important much ^^^

Edit: Self - Impressed certainly


anybody hear about the pope stepping down?

Maybe having to do with the vatican bank and money laundering?
Maybe due to all that child molesting cover-ups?
Maybe something to do with him being ultimately too corruptible with all this on his shoulders….


Yet another giant fail by:
The church, the cardinals, and their lord and yours too
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
As for room remaining for philosophy I would agree provided that "philosophy" confined itself to hypotheses that can be falsified, tested. In the absence of that discipline we get never ending massaging of words leading ultimately

to nothing.



Of course philosophers take a different view, and I think this post simply underscores John's perspective and comfort zone. He would have philosophy stick to natural sciences and logic where proofs of material matters and things can provide a correct or invalid label, and this is "something" for him to hold onto and know.

But philosophy has also concerned itself with being, as in human being, and existential concerns, etc., none of which is so easily wrangled into "hypotheses that can be falsified, tested." That's what science does. Expecting philosophy to become "scientific" in the hopes of honing in on what is real and what matters is to simply crow hop very the much more slippery realm of being and existence. There is no "answer." There's simply inquiry, boring deeper into the mystery, and getting glimpses here and there or ". . . the palm at the end of the mind, beyond the last thought, rising in the bronze decor. . . "

JL
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
As for room remaining for philosophy I would agree provided that "philosophy" confined itself to hypotheses that can be falsified, tested. In the absence of that discipline we get never ending massaging of words leading ultimately to nothing.

This is an illustration of exactly what I was saying. The science types want to test and get something. Massaging of words for them leads to nothing. A better example of left brain thinking one can not find.

But I say for some of us, the joy is in the massaging. We don't have to prove something to recognize it as enjoyable.

Complication, mystery and speculation are hardly absent from science and mathematics - they are fundamental drivers of exploratory efforts that frequently lead to important discoveries (in the material sense).


Agreed and I did note that I also understand that to get to the reductionist answers about the fundamental nature of something is a very nuanced and complex process. But it is a process of dismanteling components into simpler and smaller pieces, the opposite of wholistic.

As Cintune said:
It really all seems to boil down to aesthetic preferences and response biases.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
Of course it won't change dear Largo's mindset one iota but...

A new discipline is about to emerge (a) that's going to compliment science perfectly, (b) that's going to address these so-called "ultimate concerns" just as effectively if not better than any "religion," (c) that's going to effectively relegate philosophy (esp theist philos) and theology to the dust bin.

But I realize (1) this isn't a baby step, it's a big step, preparation is needed to imagine its presence in the wings, but I thought I'd post it anyway (largely to counterpoint dear Largo's enormous ego's judgments); (2) a watched pot never boils, it takes time, and a few of you will no doubt blow off such a claim if it's not posted immediately, tomorrow at the latest. :)

.....

BASE, have fun!
It would be adventurous to be reincarnated in a next life as a world sailor. I'm jealous. Go get some!

.....

P.S. Just added this, a moment ago, after making sure go-b didn't post up while writing.

A couple of you have the most narrow condescending view of science and engineering (left brain this or that), it's UTTERLY LUDICROUS and your persistence on this line means you lose all credibility. Simply look around the world: both science and engineering are HUGELY creative right-brain pursuits (to use this worn out metaphor). Get real, in this mindset you are an embarrassment!

Half of engineering is analytical (left brain). Are you so narrow-minded or focused on dissing something you don't think about the other full half?!! The other half is creative (right brain). Would you really tell the likes of a Dean Kamen or Steven Wosniac or Thomas Edison that they are linear left-brain analytical non creative types? Geessh! Stop embarrassing yourselves!!

.....

Cintune... +1.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
As for whether ancient texts have something to say about human nature, I think they do and surely, there is much in a particular culture that can not be understood without a knowledge of those accounts. Handel's Messiah is a magnificent piece of music, but you'll only understand part of it without a knowledge of Christian theology. You'll understand even more of it if you recognize some of the passages from the Old Testament connecting the two. You don't have to believe any of it, but recognizing the tradition it came out of enhances appreciation as does a knowledge of Bach, some of whose musical phrases have been borrowed and elaborated.

So many of the Old Testament stories are great illustrations of human selfishness and ignorance. By knowing them and discussing them from a 21st century perspective, we can see both our similarities and differences of perception between that time and and the time of the early Christian era as well as both eras and our own. What to keep of the past and what to throw away are important questions.

I am always moved when attending a Passover Sedar. One doesn't have to believe in a literal parting of the Red Sea, though how it could have happened makes for interesting speculation. The important thing is that the Jews survived and remain grateful for that fact to this day. All of those I know also understand that the lessons of Passover go beyond any one ethnic group. My favorite is a Passover service sung in a combination of Hebrew and reggae. It will definitely get you thinking about the nature of freedom.

Ancient texts still produce social narratives that are important.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
True fructose, the really great scientists and mathemeticians used/use both halves of their brain. That's why they're great instead of merely competent.

Meanwhile, I'm all in favor of scientific symbols and narratives that the average person can relate to in their daily life and I agree that is the next step beyond critiquing the old narratives. It's fun to imagine a Catholic style mass or a Passover Sedar that employs naturalistic symbolism instead of religious. When I try though, it ends up sounding more Buddhist than anything. Maybe a collaboration is in order?






Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
But I say for some of us, the joy is in the massaging.

Fact is, massaging forever is a requirement, whether you enjoy it or not. It takes volumes of tossing it all back and forth to get to a sudden and typically unexpected understanding, which of course dosn't "solve" anything but it is a step in the right direction and you can't possibly hope for more than that.

So ......... you may as well enjoy it!

A friend of mine was (and still is) heavily into "alternate" quasi - revolutionary politics ( banking reform!) which is fertile ground for an eventual fate of cynicism, pessimism, major personal disappointment and other darkness due to the fantastically low odds of success. It is a classic study in enormous effort and risk for next to zero pay off, all driven by stupid altruistic social ideals.

His modus operandi, one handed to him from other survivors, was to first and foremost have fun with it. It is in fact the only way to survive it. Laugh like hell. There's lots of material after all.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
But it is a process of dismanteling components into simpler and smaller pieces, the opposite of wholistic

Maybe in particle physics. Probably not. In mathematics considerable efforts in virtually every branch of the subject have been expended in moving from the specific to the general. This process frequently illuminates and solves problems by reaching a sort of perceptive plateau upon which simple (yes, the simpler you refer to) statements about "wholistic" generalities reduces the complexities extant at more fundamental levels. This is certainly not a "dismantling" process - but the opposite.

the really great scientists and mathemeticians used/use both halves of their brain. That's why they're great instead of merely competent

Oh please! This is absurd. You denigrate all of us who are merely "competent" and use "both halves" of our brains in our investigations all the time. Do you actually read this stuff before you post it?

;>(
WBraun

climber
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
The most intelligent beings in the Universe don't use their own brains at all ......
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
I concur. I am a dope and fire on four cylinders equally distributed on both sides of a V8.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Fruity, if you knew even a smattering of the philosophy you so glibly dismiss you'd understand perfectly well that the promise that technology and info would prove to be men's salvation is an idea old as Artesian wells and quite obviously it has never panned out as advertised. The problem of course is that information does not address the principal problem, believing as you do that once you get your thinking cap on straight, and blow out all that dead wood per beliefs and so on, and transplant engineering shizzle and so forth into the old brainpan, we're mint.

Except to a determinist like you, there is no free choice so none of it matters anyhow. We are all on a determined course and whatever info is out there cannot change our mechanical trajectory anymore than Craig can speak to God in Pig Latin.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Amongst other pablum, the ol lunk wrote,
men's salvation is an idea old as Artesian wells and quite obviously it has never panned out
Reframing it...

With education and training in (a) the facts (e.g., how the world works) and (b) life strategies that work... higher performance in the art of living is achievable.


I hope you like crow. In a few years, you'll be eatin' some. ;)
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 12, 2013 - 12:05am PT
It is likely that the prescription for doing the calculation might be based on some abstract notions, like Hilbert space, whose virtue is to provide a means of doing the calculation*. The successful theory is not one in which elaborates on each mechanical gear cog engages the next one, but the theory which is predictive

* Exactly, and even then various aspects of the math used are not rigorously proven . . . but they work. So even the mathematical cogs and gears aren't all in place!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 12, 2013 - 12:17am PT
jogill-

I personally don't see referring to someone as competent as an insult? Sorry if it was perceived that way.

I am interested in the mathematical world view and how it might differ from something like particle physics. Unfortunately, I never had a mathematics teacher who could articulate what the over all point of it all was. Instead I was subjected to the memorize this formula and then this one and this one and the test is on Wednesday and maybe if you get good at it some day you can build a bridge approach.

I was very struck while watching the tv show Numbers, when Charlie, the math guy, made the statement, "Math is the language of the universe". I had never heard that expressed before and somehow it made the whole enterprise much more interesting.

So yes, I'd be interested in the mathematical view of the universe and why it seems to be describable that way especially if it is now perceived that there is no God who is a mathematician.
MH2

climber
Feb 12, 2013 - 12:21am PT
And speaking of cannon balls,

If Hilbert space is too abstract, consider the square root of a negative number. What is it and what does it mean? Can't really say, but the concept can be made use of in calculation, and was used as early as 400 years ago to provide perfectly good solutions to 3rd degree polynomial equations, by the first mathematician to apply math to the flight of cannon balls.

Niccolò Fontana Tartaglia
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 12, 2013 - 12:23am PT
whoa - things are getting freaky now.
WBraun

climber
Feb 12, 2013 - 12:45am PT
jogill -- "So even the mathematical cogs and gears aren't all in place!"


That's what I said many posts back as "missing ingredients".

Once they understand the science of the soul, then ...

All the cogs and gears fall into place .......




Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 12, 2013 - 01:07am PT
t is likely that the prescription for doing the calculation might be based on some abstract notions, like Hilbert space, whose virtue is to provide a means of doing the calculation. The successful theory is not one in which elaborates on each mechanical gear cog engages the next one, but the theory which is predictive.
--------


Let me get clear on this. Are you saying that in the string of events from A, to B (and per B, we can forecast or predict things about it to a remarkable degree) there involves gear cogs that DO NOT engage each other and are not subject to physical laws or a linear progression moving forward in time? Are there things in your experience that have no "cause," at a distance or otherwise? Or are you saying that the "how," the progressing from one thing to the next, cog gears or otherwise, in not "important," rather only the prediction.

I also get the feeling that Ed is saying in the real world, we don't have a linear causal chain, rather this is just a model for looking at the progression and morphing of forms and matter reacting to gravity and so forth. If that is the case, then reductionism makes no sense and bottom-up causality is also just a construct not existing in the real world.



JL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 12, 2013 - 01:15am PT
Once they understand the science of the soul, then ...

All the cogs and gears fall into place .......


Straight out of The Volkswagen Maintenance Guide for the Complete Idiot
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