Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 10, 2013 - 02:13am PT
I edited my post. Go back and check out the quote, which came from here:

http://www.creationmoments.com/content/stretching-out-heavens

We must interpret our physical observations based on the scripture and not interpret the scripture based on our physical observations.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 02:51am PT
Oh yea of little faith.

I already told you I didn't agree with all of it, but to save time I posted the links to start the discussion.

Regardless of how "they" view science, specifically go after examples of scripture quotes that "they" refer to and in which "they" draw out and compare the science truth in regards to today's level of modern science and understanding.

Try and prove the direct statements of scripture wrong. Take the dare.


Examples:

Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning ..."

Wow, we do now know there was a beginning, the point of singularity, The Big Bang.



"Created the Heavens and the Earth ..."

Wow, we now do know the Universe was created (13.7 B yrs ago) , then later our Sol (5 B yrs ago) and the planets accreated along with our Earth (4.56 B yrs ago).



"Stretches the Heavens out like a tent ... (paraphrasing)"

Wow, we now know that indeed the Universe is expanding. Thank you Dr. Hubble.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 02:54am PT
this is my personal favorite:

I wonder how many billions of dollars Explorer 66 cost. Yet someone only had to open the first page of a $10.00 Bible to know the universe had a beginning

that one is just funny, but the one that base picked out is downright disturbing. I can't believe you had the nerve to present that stuff Klimmer. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:03am PT
You guys are going after straw-men arguments. Try to prove the Bible wrong, not the people presenting the info.

Even Bozo the Clown can tell the truth sometimes. Doesn't make everything he says a joke.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:11am PT
Look at this stuff:


Examples of Scientific Accuracy in the Bible
By David Pyles

When studying the science of the ancient world, one is more apt to be impressed with its ignorance than to admire its accuracy. However, the Bible offers a definite exception to this rule. The scriptures are replete with statements suggesting scientific knowledge which predates the corresponding discoveries of secular science. Given that Bible writers were not scientists, and given that the scientific information at their disposal was generally misleading, the accuracy of the Bible can only be attributed to the inspiration of God. Here are a few of the more striking examples of scientific accuracy in the Bible:

1) The Genesis account of creation asserts that all humans descended from the same parents, Adam and Eve. There is now considerable debate in the scientific community over recent genetic studies which indicate that all men have a common father and all women have a common mother. In fact, the latter claim is sometimes called the Eve hypothesis. Some scientists are skeptical about these studies, and even those who are supportive would not generally accept the Genesis account; however, Bible believers should expect further research to add yet more evidence supporting these hypotheses.

2) Genesis 10:25 speaks of one Peleg whose name means division. The text then explains that he was so named because in his days the earth was divided. It is now commonly believed that all continents of the earth were once combined into a single continent called Pangaea. This belief is based upon the fact that present continents appear somewhat as pieces out of a puzzle. There are also other evidences, including several geological similarities on matching continental edges.

3) The Bible asserts that the stars are innumerable (Gen 15:5, Gen 17:7, Heb 11:12). This does not necessarily mean that we are incapable of mathematically expressing their number. It means that no human has the ability to count them individually so as to achieve their sum. It is claimed that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. If stars were counted around the clock at one star per second, then it would take over 3000 years just to count these. Add to this the fact that there are as many as 100 billion galaxies. However, there were many scholars prior to Galileo who believed that the stars could be counted, and several attempts were made to do so. Many of these counts arrived at around 1000 stars.

4) There is reasonable evidence that the scriptures speak of dinosaurs. As should be expected, this evidence comes from Genesis, the book of origins, and from the book of Job, generally believed to be the oldest book in the Bible.

First, Gn 1:21 speaks of God creating whales on the fifth day of creation. The Hebrew word translated here as whales is generally translated dragons. It is translated as monsters once, whale(s) twice, serpent(s) thrice, and dragon(s) 21 times.

Second, Job's statements concerning the behemoth (Job 40:15-24) might be referring to dinosaurs. Its tail is compared to a cedar tree. Its strength, and apparently its bulk, is in its loins. It is said to be the chief of the ways of God, and is described as having the ability to drink up a river. No modern animal meets this description in all points.

Third, Job's description of the leviathin (Job 41) very much resembles a dinosaur. Some would dismiss this description as fictitious because the leviathin is described as breathing fire; however, some creation scientists believe this could have happened. The creature would merely need glands to produce a chemical which would combust when exposed to air. The bombardier beetle does in fact have this ability. The fact that nearly every major culture of the world has traditions about such dragons lends yet further credibility to the possibility of their existence in the past.


etc etc....

this is the worst possible examples of obtuse, circular, wildly speculative reasoning imaginable.
You should be ashamed. Do you really teach this to kids? I'm serious - do you?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:17am PT
Bruce,

Do you have a memory problem? Separation of Church and State.


Pull-out specific quotes of scripture that you have a problem with.


I already told you all I don't agree with how they presented it all, but to save time I posted the links to start the discussion.




Once again...


Try and prove the direct statements of scripture wrong. Take the dare.


Examples:

Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning ..."

Wow, we do now know there was a beginning, the point of singularity, The Big Bang.



"Created the Heavens and the Earth ..."

Wow, we now do know the Universe was created (13.7 B yrs ago) , then later our Sol (5 B yrs ago) and the planets accreated along with our Earth (4.56 B yrs ago).



"Stretches the Heavens out like a tent ... (paraphrasing)"

Wow, we now know that indeed the Universe is expanding. Thank you Dr. Hubble.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:28am PT
I'm reminded of an old Quaker saying from the days of that religion's foundation, "Do not of the Bible a paper Pope make".

The problem is not whether some Bible phrase is vague enough to be contorted into a particular interpretation, the problem is why some people feel the need to have one book explain everything.

No less than Martin Luther thought that if everyone could read the Bible for themselves, we'd all agree on what truth was and that obviously didn't happen. So why, 500 years later are people still trying?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:38am PT
do you or do you not teach that stuff to kids in school?

Get a grip man. Of course i cant' disprove most of that mumbo jumbo - I can hardly figure out what they are referencing and neither can you. What the fuk is a Leviathan? A large camel? A Brontosaurus? Pathways in the sea? that could be interpreted so many different ways your head would spin. All of it is vague to the point of obscurity and speculative to the point of hilarity!
Of course I can't prove anything! Who hell could? Nor can I prove that dragons never hoarded gold and treasure. You could probably open up a Dr Suess green eggs and ham and ask to determine various laws of physics.

Hell I'm ashamed of you. Are you sure you're a climber?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:51am PT
Bruce you sure have a lot of shame. Lol. What do you do when no ones Looking? (Rhetorical question don't answer).

Seriously, do you not understand the answer "separation of church and state."

I'm sorry you're not up to the challenge and can't make sense of it all.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:58am PT
well I'm glad you can laugh at it Klimmer. How about that ARk on the moon theory - or was that just a notion?

so do you or do you not teach that stuff to kids in school? I asked you first.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 04:23am PT
Don't mix arguements. Why bring the massive mother ship on the Moon into this? Many NASA images verify the presence and NASA moon-walkers verify there are spacecraft on the far side of the Moon. Mitchell is one.

I abide by separation of church and state like I already have answered several times now.

It's like I'm talking to a massive wall.

And yes I climb, ski, paraglide, scuba, free dive, mountain bike, carve board but that shouldn't matter.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 11:17am PT
oh klimmer for crying out loud. JStan is clearly far more right than I ever realized. Sure we both speak English but somewhere along the line the translation is lost. Look, I have no doubt you actually climb and I don't fault you for that. So do I and I'm afraid that associating we have explains my shame in your attitude and most certainly if you actually teach this hybrid / hydra headed monster of ignorance to young impressionable minds. Do you also explain to them that they must be certain?

Yes it is true I am capable of shame when I do something sinful or even if someone I am somehow associated with does something sinful. How about you? Have you no shame?

Now what are you driving at it terms of separation of church and state? I believe education is a function of a secular state and if it isn't you are living proof that it bloody well should be.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2013 - 11:33am PT
I thank Klimmer for posting his beliefs here on ST
They provide a look into the many ways that humans can sort out reality that provides them with frame work of how the universe works.

I used to have some similar beliefs, but I was a New Ager Science/God/Spirits/fields/karma/reincarnation/zen/aliens type with an overall disdain for the bible and all associated with it.

My old beliefs were that God guided the creation and evolution.

Now I reject those old believes.

I put my beliefs to some rigours tests about 15 years ago, and the old beliefs failed every one of them.

Now, all my beliefs can pass any test that I can think of.

Testing beliefs, interesting topic, I'm sure there are some I haven't tried, and many I would reject as valid, like "We really don't know anything, it's all a dream like Matrix"

MH2

climber
Feb 10, 2013 - 11:49am PT
Is Klimmer left brain or right brain?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
Many NASA images verify the presence and NASA moon-walkers verify there are spacecraft on the far side of the Moon. Mitchell is one.

You clearly don't have a clue as to what the term "verify" means. Your examples of "verification" of science in the bible also shows this error abundantly.

What I would like to know is if you are a professional school teacher you must be a member of a professional association. All such associations require their members to conduct themselves by professional code of ethics and within the realm of their certification and training. They enforce this by a formal system of enquiry and discipline.

Is your professional association aware that you are teaching this abortion of twisted logic? Is your "expertize" in scripture really accepted as legitimate evidence in a science classroom or is it considered outside the bounds of acceptable curricula?

Where in gods name do you work? Iran?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
So long as any religious or spiritual text is considered as a source of quantifiable information, you are totally missing the point of the text in the first place. It would be like studying science for clues on spirituality, or looking into the brain for evidence of human experience. Without some sense of limitation in both material and spiritual realms, while abandoning the childish belief that either is the "all and everything," you will never escape a circular argument or your own making, while blaming the other camp for overstating their case.

JL
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
Bruce,

Seriously how dense are you? Do you think for a minute that I talk about "forbidden secret knowledge" or teach any of this ever in a public classroom? What do you not understand regarding separation of church and state?


However, we should be able to discuss any idea openly here on ST especially, when this is on-topic concerning the title of this thread. Or are you against reasoned debate and open thought and discussion?

Who are you going to burn at the stake first Bruce? Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Sir Isaac Newton, Einstein? Who? They were all fathers of modern science and devout believers in G-d, gods, or seekers. Most were of the Judeo-Christian faiths.

By the way, I would like to add one of our dear heroes to the list:
John Muir

(He was a devout believer and he did science, and he was an incredible mountaineer/climber by even today's standards)










Dr. Ed,

Take the challenge. I'm not stretching the interpretation of the word of G-d to show it is most often in agreement with modern science, and valid thousands of years before modern science ever caught up.

You can't get over the fact that G-d works through man to write his revelation and truth to be revealed and shared with the world.

He tells us in his word he does just so, and to confound the wise that lean and trust on their own understanding, which is flawed and incomplete. He also gets the truth out through the folly of preaching and teaching, another technique that confounds the wise.

2 Peter 1:21 (Cambridge KJV)
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

Jeremiah 9:23-24 (Cambridge KJV)
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.


1 Corinthians 1:21 (Cambridge KJV)
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

1 Corinthians 1:27 (Cambridge KJV)
"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"


G-d plays multi-dimensional chess through time and space and you can't wrap your head around that idea. He can run circles around our reasoning.


Why does G-d do this? To humble us before him. We are prideful and sinful. Pride always comes before the fall.


But, he made the truth of salvation very easy to understand, that even a child can get it.




So long as any religious or spiritual text is considered as a source of quantifiable information, you are totally missing the point of the text in the first place. It would be like studying science for clues on spirituality, or looking into the brain for evidence of human experience. Without some sense of limitation in both material and spiritual realms, while abandoning the childish belief that either is the "all and everything," you will never escape a circular argument or your own making, while blaming the other camp for overstating their case.

JL



JL,


I challenge you to watch NOVA: Newton's Dark Secrets

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/newton-dark-secrets.html


That is exactly what Sir Isaac Newton was all about and that was the whole idea behind natural philosophy, to know all of G-d; the Creator of the natural world, the Universe, and to come to know him through the physical natural world he made, through science and by studying the word of G-d.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 10, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
That is exactly what Sir Isaac Newton was all about and that was the whole idea behind natural philosophy, to know all of G-d; the Creator of the natural world, the Universe, and to come to know him through the physical natural world he made, through science and by studying the word of G-d.


Newton made the very mistake I was mentioning - hoping that a close study of the natural world would answer spiritual questions, and finding no such thing, blaming spiritual for not "manning up" in material form.

Simply put, there are questions and inquiries that lie beyond materialism - of that we may be sure. If materialism answers all of your questions - so be it. If it doesn't, it is proof only that the inquiry is not a material one. If every inquiry must be a material quest, that's your decision, and more power to you. It's entirely beside the point unless your belief system is a materialist rendition of fundamentalism, and as the saying goes - never argue with someone stuck in a perspective.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 10, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
of that we may be sure...

Really, I don't know who's more delusional regarding "spirituality" - Largo or Klimmer. Best of luck to each one though.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#288715

It's really a fun movie, you all should see it if you haven't already. :)
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 10, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
To defeat others is the starting point of hatred and vengeance.
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