Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 11521 - 11540 of total 22989 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 6, 2012 - 11:16am PT
It has everything to do with political power structure and nothing to do with spirituality.

Here we are talking about religion in general across a general population. Or so I thought. So I can't agree with that.

There are wide swaths of humans (many sweet loveable grandmas included) for whom religion is all about spirituality (state or condition of spirit) concerning death and dying, pain and suffering, meaning of life issues, grief of loved ones, inspiring narratives or lessons for getting on in life, etc.

Actually I know that you already know this.

But of course for the Jerry Falwells (and their Liberty Universities accrediting Christian lawyers and their Christian agendas to affect and effect law), Pat Robertsons and their ilk... and for the Catholic Church with its organizations everywhere... it IS certainly about power.

But you lose people in your audience when you frame some certain things as either-or or "just" instead of and x, and y, and z.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 6, 2012 - 11:20am PT
I agree HFCS, and they are doing it right.... mostly. But at the same time those nice sweet grandma's are soaking in all that moral majority satanic sing song, mostly out of straight tribal allegiance. If it wasn't for the pied piper of organized religion I think those sweet grandma's would find more common ground with the heathens

But essentially you are right. why demonize the whole shebang over a few flaws? At the same time the flaws shouldn't be ignored or minimized just out of a desire not to anger. Especially when those flaws are leveraged to such huge effect. Its like the big oil companies leveraging guys like The Chief. The Chiefs values are not really the problem - hell for the most part their pretty honorable and fine. Its how they become corrupted out of all recognition by those who are really calling the shots.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 6, 2012 - 11:32am PT
the flaws shouldn't be ignored or minimized just out of a desire not to anger.

Damn straight.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 6, 2012 - 11:39am PT
Yup. ...damn straight HFCS....very good point....
And good qualifications Bruce

Of course this is the type of religion I deal with everyday...
And it is important...

Shows you how easy it is to get to negative even when looking at the greater picture..
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 6, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
yeah, I certainly get that.

Which means we've got some consensus. At least in the moment. Time for the gym! :)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 6, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
I support nothing that infringes on the nature and gift of the free mind and body.

Sorry for lurking, but you sure about the "free mind and body" thing?

I'm not sure that's possible even theoretically, much less practically. The idea sounds pretty idealistic to me. I think ideals are fine, but they can turn into ideologies quickly if not examined. If neither is possible or probable, then you might be setting yourself up for grand disappointments. Great disappointments usually lead to regret and anger.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 6, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
Mikel - idealistic....yes..

But it's not an absoute..
Just try and keep my mind free from programing and not regimented by any type of human invented thinking or controls...
On a greater note - live free and think - not constrained by the ideas of society, corporationx superstitioun, fear, programming, nation, ect, ect..
I'm not.beholding to anything - including myself and my own beleifs..
Really it is a Buddhism/ Zen thing..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 6, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
Just for a moment look at all Mankind. atleast as far back as we've
recorded. In most all cultures and tribes, man has always pointed up to
an invisible God. Be it as it may, God has been described in many different
forms. But the fact is, All types of men, from simpleton to Kings. Have
in fact proclaimed that in talking to an invisible Spirit, their questions
and desires HAVE been answered. For thousands of years this sentiment
has carried enough weight for parents to teach it to their children. For
men to want to involve it into their Governments. And important enough
for men to want to die for. Some "thing" that cannot be seen or proven
to the "outsider" looking in. But for the "worshipers" theres nothing more
real or important.

How can this be?

Sure, you'll point at "authoritarian" mind control to control the masses.
But looking at history its the masses that usually bring the "religion"
to the authoritys.And in the "authoritarian" ran "religions" if God wasn't answering prayer from the masses. you know they would rebel.

The God of the Bible says, wherever two or more men come together to inquisit Him, He will be there. IT doesn't matter if your Jewish,Muslim,
Hindu,Mayan, etc. God of the Bible will hear your prayers!




RILEY
'I'm not.beholding to anything - including myself and my own beleifs..
Really it is a Buddhism/ Zen thing.. "

This doesnt make sense!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 6, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Damn-it, I don't have time to work, just because I'm occupied with thi...
Damn-it, I don't have time to work, just because I'm occupied with thinking about how to exist.
Credit: Albert Engström
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 6, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
. RILEY 'I'm not.beholding to anything - including myself and my own beleifs.. Really it is a Buddhism/ Zen thing.. "

This doesnt make sense!

The true heart of Buddhism is impermanence among other universal and self evident laws of nature....getting to that understading is a long road
Zen is just ...nothing....or meditation....control of your mind, your thoughts, your feelings, you emotions....getting to that is also a long road also..

Empty your mind of all the bullsh#t...to find the truth..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 6, 2012 - 04:15pm PT

Beholding "nothing" IS beholding "something"

We had that arguement awhile ago...
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 6, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
From what I can make out in my studies and practices, all yogas (approaches to wisdom, religions, mysticisms, etc.) emphasize, recognize, or elevate the importance of selflessness. Selflessness is THE core precept that runs through them all. When a body-mind organism finally comes to find and realize complete and everlasting nondual selflessness (however and whenever it happens), then a total change in understanding and perspective occurs for that body-mind organism. According to all reports, it's like waking up from a long dream. Words, concepts, images, symbols, and any other means of communication fail either to point to the new state of being or communicate it. Scores of metaphors, allegories, and parables abound, some weird.

All religious precepts and guidelines that I'm aware of are all oriented to subordinating or suppressing individual personality, desires, self-aggrandizement, achievement, and a host of other "sins" that buoy the belief in the existence of a personal mind and body. Every religion and spiritual practice is basically teaching personal suicide. In that regard, they are insane.

Who's to say what's what? Have those people who claim liberation gone crazy? Are religious myths efforts to explain the intrinsically unexplainable that come out of personal suicide?

All yogas rely upon experiences and understanding that no one can judge or ascertain as right or wrong--be they religious, science, climbing, losing someone dear, having someone dear, depression, drugs, the ravages of age or sickness, paying attention to histories or news about others. They all teach something.

Is it mystical or unscientific to claim that we all get the lessons or experiences we need when we need them?

Is there really "an invisible God?" Who can say? Do we need to say at all?

Buddha is the only prophet who said, "I do not care to know your various theories about God. What is the use of discussing all the subtle doctrines about the soul? Do good and be good. And this will take you to freedom and to whatever truth there is." [The Buddha] was, in the conduct of his life, absolutely without personal motives.
(Swami Vivekananda)

It would be one thing if we knew what all the variables were in the matrix we call the universe, and their relationships, so that we could tease out what's what and how things really happen. But we just can't. There are many things we have handles on, but what does it mean "to have a handle on something?" (Hmmmmmm.)

What I increasingly see in front of me is unsubstantiated, open, spontaneous, and unified. I can say this as a person of science and as a person who's a little caught up in wu-wu.
MH2

climber
Dec 6, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
Every religion and spiritual practice is basically teaching personal suicide.


Perhaps, like when Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote:

"When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die."



edit:

Might as well simplify philosophy, too:

http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/philos/the_fear_of_death.pdf
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Dec 6, 2012 - 06:26pm PT


rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 6, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
How can this be?

So because man has always had some other entity to blame for his woes, this is some sort of proof?

It only proves that man has always needed an explanation for things that could not be explained. What was man to do, blame the dirt? The dirt was often part of the problem. And the night sky looking rather strange and undefinable just made "up" the way to look and point.

Explain this: Christians have had a Santa Claus for a long time. My sister even got in a fight with my wife because my wife accidentally made a statement that might contradict the existence of Santa Claus. Some Christians find it just plain wrong to let their kids know from birth that there is no Santa Claus. Why? Does this strong desire to tech kids that something is true when it is not true somehow prove that there is a Santa?

And what happens to the kids who's parents die and then then go live in a jungle with no human contact before the fateful day when they would have discovered the truth? They keep believing for the rest of their lives.

Belief is not proof and means nothing. Neither does tradition. Old books, some which also try to describe Santa as real, are absolutely no proof either.

I will not contradict anyone's belief that there is a God but I damn well won't fall for any type of evidence that is no more supportive than the evidence that there is Santa Claus.

Please please give up on the idea that a believer can convince a non-believer that they are right based on things that can also be attributed to human nature, culture, and/or insanity.

Dave
WBraun

climber
Dec 6, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
Both cintune and Dave you're only trying to convince yourselves that your right.

That won't work.

Better stick to the scientific method.

And God doesn't create anything. Everything is an expansion of his original self.

There's big difference between creation and expansion.

Of course cintine since you're nothing but a Dr Frankenstein (imitator) trying to create, and we have seen how that turned out, this is why you're so easily mislead .......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 6, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
i imagine that everyone interested in this thread will find this video very interesting

a message from our elder brothers at the heart of the world

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urMcofvcMAU
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 7, 2012 - 05:34am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#277371

photo not found
Missing photo ID#277370


Celebrating the Iconic 'Blue Marble' Shot
The image that changed the way we see Earth turns 40

http://weather.aol.com/2012/12/06/celebrating-the-iconic-blue-marble-shot/?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D242263
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 7, 2012 - 05:43am PT
Interesting debate.

The book of Nature, and the book of G-d are in agreement.

Only people are in disagreement.

I'm clearly in the camp of Hashem Adonai Elohim.

My creator and savior came to Earth as Yeshua HaMashaich. He's coming back as he promised. Better be on board. He foretold you exactly what would happen. And its happening exactly as he said it would. He knows the beginning to the end, the end from the beginning. He is Omniscient. Eternity is at stake. You want to be on the side of G-d and not Lucifer.


Science vs. God: Does Progress Trump Faith?
By Wynne Parry, LiveScience Contributor | LiveScience.com – 17 hrs ago

http://news.yahoo.com/science-vs-god-does-progress-trump-faith-202019706.html


Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:35am PT
Just found this to be too true to miss out on




Cult of Dusty, great channel


Does it have to be true for you to believe "in it?

or better....

Can you believe in a lie, fairytale or myth?
Messages 11521 - 11540 of total 22989 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews