Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Oh, regarding Repub efforts (by Brounback, etc.) to resurrect 30 year old policies on non-empirical faith...

Here's Krauss again,
"I think we just don't make enough fun of it - we should ridicule these people."

Looks like he's coming around to the hfcs and Susan Jacoby playbook of strategies, lol!

Imagine that: A physicist being bold, getting involved, acknowledging there are serious battles going on in America in sociopolitical terms, taking up sides (!!) and last but not least giving thought to strategies and then employing them for winning the good fight. Fresh!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 9, 2013 - 01:17pm PT


maybe you have a really good hold on your religion… But really…. there is no reason to.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
re: interest or lack of interest

the lack of interest in pursuing these topics beyond the popular presentations that necessarily gloss over the incompleteness of understanding

This interest (certainly not the lack thereof) has defined my life.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 9, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
This interest (certainly not the lack thereof) has defined my life.


 really? I gotta hear more about this….


for me, aside from this thread it plays vary little in my life, though I am all about the strong understanding that there is no god (none of them that have ever been invented my man).
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
No Jingy, you really don't. (It would likely kill this thread.) :)

Suffice it to say there is no royal road, as I'm sure you already know, to an indepth, well-rounded nature investigation by way of the sciences.

It's fair to say spending thousands of hours pursuing something, anything - be it nature investigation or engineering or rock climbing - defines a life. Right?

.....

re: Milk Toast

For the record, I have never "accused" EH of being Milk toast.

I'm just really impressed with how many science types nowadays have decided to get involved, to leave the sidelines and to get in the game on these serious sociopolitical issues. 25 years ago it was so different. Maybe the internet's had something to do with it. :)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 9, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Proper scientific ideas matter... and if science has anything to offer, it is that the ideas are testable and subject to empirical challenge. Opinions are not.

Ed, I am very glad and appreciative that you continue to engage as one of the sanest participants in this thread. There is a dimension of the sciences driven by a pure desire to know and understand, without preconceived notions or agendas, that is very worthwhile.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
There is a dimension of the sciences driven by a pure desire to know and understand, without preconceived notions or agendas, that is very worthwhile.

Yes.

.....

you may not have known enough at that point to have been aware of it

I think we're pretty much the same age, thereabouts.

.....

Jingy, the word is getting out. Finally at long last. 123 likes for your video, 0 dislikes. This is encouraging. :)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 9, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
The "reason factor" is interesting. It makes me think of managing an investment portfolio. It has been said that todays religion is capitalism / materialism, which I think is too ferociously simplistic to be useful but as usual has plenty of truth to it.

Anyway, in finances reason can be weighted heavily - or not. In my own case I am hardly a scholar so if I want to be successful with it I need to invest some faith in the system and take advantage of expertize. But to wash my hands of decision making means you are an easy mark quickly separated from your money. Some cautious (and reversible) faith is always required but certain faith is like full blast air raid sirens. The only other tools at hand for joe average beyond some basic arithmetic and finance skills is reason and psychology. Both are easily acquired through a life of experience and observation - unless one is prone to ignoring or minimizing one or the other or both.

In realistic terms, 90 percent of us can only hope to grasp the technical complexity of markets and financial products to a very limited degree, even with a concerted attempt at gaining knowledge over time. That leaves an imperative to trust in others. Our only hope for retirement with a good nest egg is to judge and trust in others using our powers of reason and knowledge of psychology. Both may be only "amateur" or maybe even "professional" in quality but either way its all we have ..... because blind faith is clearly stupid.

So that is how we do an investment portfolio. Why are the risks considered differently with religious faith?

If Go-b could ever reply with anything other than cut and paste scripture I'd love to know how he views the difference.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 9, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
for me, aside from this thread it plays vary little in my life, though I am all about the strong understanding that there is no god (none of them that have ever been invented my man).

i wish this thread could just get beyond this whole discussion about whether there is a god, as i really don't think that is a worthwhile discussion

those of you who have built your entire world view on some or other god concept and are happy with that and don't want to examine the information upon which that god concept is built...fine, be happy, don't bother the rest of us about it, just leave it at that and don't try to proselytize

and those of you who obsessively disagree with those God concept based religions/philosophies, just leave it alone, as arguing with 'believers' is fruitless and just amounts to one of the many forms of social discrimination

this thread has transcended its title to a much more interesting level of discussion, while the original title is a dead horse; embarrassing to keep beating on it, and a serious distraction to some very interesting analysis and learning experiences

there is more than enough brilliant expertise participating here to support very worthwhile discussions regarding discoveries of the sciences and philosophies relative to the nature of awareness, intelligence, concepts of the existence or nature of spirit, and the underlying structure of the material world in many dimensions

please, please...

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 9, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
this thread has transcended its title to a much more interesting level of discussion,

says you. You really think the mental speculations of Wernerisms lead anywhere? Compared to what is happening right here and now on earth to us it it may be of intellectual interest to ponder on the existence of parallel universes but human behavior, which is what this thread is all about, is of immediate interest.

Anyway, no one is railing against the existence of god, merely the certainty of it with no compelling evidence other than ... well, certainty. If anything compelling ever came up on the radar screen, I'd be as interested as anyone.

Maybe you want to transcend the topic so if you think the two ponderables are mutually exclusive then why don't you and Largo etc start a new thread devoted to it? I don't think you should because i don't think they are mutually exclusive.

Why do you find my line of enquiry annoying exactly?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 9, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
you think a 15 year old that still believes in Santa isn't going to get razzed?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 9, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Go -be, what do you make of this?

John 2:23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

Mark 10:17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”

20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”

21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
jstan

climber
Feb 9, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
i wish this thread could just get beyond this whole discussion about whether there is a god, as i really don't think that is a worthwhile discussion

I would hesitate to describe this thread as a discussion. Nonbelievers and believers are using different languages. A discussion is a conversation where two parties evaluate each others data and the reasons for the opinions that are held.

It has seemed to me the observation non-believers should make is that the standards for behavior advocated in religious works are often in direct opposition to the behavior of the faithful. Indeed those religious texts generated over thousands of years are to an amazing degree - self contradictory. Unfortunately even that is unproductive because that approach requires the use of data. It is the wrong language.

The absence of discussion in this context is global, and very worrisome. In Iraq the Shia and the Sunni are unable to discuss. Murder becomes the natural result. As has so often happened over the millennia.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 9, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
OK. I'm going to posit something. You don't have to believe in climate change to think this problem. Imagine whatever peril you like.

Let's say that our entire species is in dire peril from climate change, but that the real problems take 100 years to hit us.

Is it possible for our tribal society to all join hands, drop our swords or whatever wha wha, and cooperate over something that none of us will ever live to see?

Myself? I don't think so. A problem like this is impossible, because everyone has to agree. As we speak, there is not enough oil to supply everyone person in the world with the same amount of energy as the cleanest of us. I know some of you will say you live in a treehouse, but the problem is species-wide. Imagine profiteers. Imagine how we could ever cooperate on a common goal. I say we are still way too tribal and that we are basically f*#ked. Go buy land in Saskatchewan for your grand kids.

Still, just look at this: 8000 miles across. An atmosphere so thin that you could drive that far on the freeway in an hour in your car. Could we all throw away our slogans and prejudices, totally change the way we function as a species?

Home sweet home.
Home sweet home.
Credit: BASE104
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 9, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
HFCS -
Jingy, the word is getting out. Finally at long last. 123 likes for your video, 0 dislikes. This is encouraging. :)

 What you talking'bout?

That ain't "My" bideo…. I just found it interesting and pointed enough to post it on this thread… It seemed to say what I feel better than I ever will.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
Jingy, I said "yours" in the sense that you linked to it here on this page.

If you visit the youtube site, you'll notice about 123 likes, 0 dislikes, that's what I was referring to.

.....

Tend to agree, BASE. Are you familiar with "Tragedy of the Commons" and so-called "wicked problems." They seem to apply here. Not on the thread, hahaha, but in our American culture and the world and in our species.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 9, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
Nonbelievers and believers are using different languages

I'm not sure if I buy this description of what separates the two. We both speak english here at least. I know you don't mean that so literally and effectively I get your drift. True to human nature, conflict breeds intransigence and competition, or if truth be told losing sight of the objective.

Isn't it true that we both wish to get to the truth? or is our real objective to win?

The way I see it the rationalists would be be willing to accept the existence of a creator and the absolute authority of a certain dogma - if there was a rational reason to believe it. "Feeling certain" dosn't cut it because we know that such certain but unsubstantiated feeling have a long history of proving false throughout human history and can be the result of many known real world influences on our psyche.

The theists will not accept the possibility of no creator or even that their understanding of a creator may be miles off of their belief. Even their notion of the ethical code, myths, and dogma is certain and unable to change regardless of contrary evidence. Again we know that such certainty can be explained through well understood patterns of human behavior, and there is no other compelling reason to explain it otherwise. The demand for certainty creates a self perpetuating feedback loop of deception. If you truly have faith you must be certain. If you are certain then contradictory evidence must be ignored. If that evidence becomes overwhelming then ignore it harder. This is a well known pattern of behavior.

Perhaps there is a parallel reality of understanding out there but it is reasonable to need something more than just feeling to believe it. I'm not saying that feeling (intuition) is without value but we know that intuition must be substantiated with evidence otherwise there no way to differentiate from prejudice or any other self deception.

The bottom line is that theists authority for explaining our world has been on the run from the successes of science for centuries now. It is their certainty not their faith that is their achilles heel.. The uncertainty inherent in a rationalist world view allows one to ponder and perhaps even accept the imponderable - the falsehood of ones belief. As far as I can tell the theists cannot say the same.

But maybe its all just a lot of bluff. As noted before if a gun is held to their head its amazing how easily religious belief will adjust to a new reality.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 9, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
HFCS -
Jingy, I said "yours" in the sense that you linked to it here on this page.


 I get it, understood, roger… clear as crystal.

Don't take this the wrong way...

I tend to read your posts as ambiguous at best… Part of me wants to say you're a big-time theist (near Werner style) (that whole if loving you blah, blah I don't want to be right thing… what was that? Hahaha) But the other side of my head says look at all these people on this thread who are talking about how HFCS hates god… could they all be wrong?

I'm going to try and not read your posts as flatly as I have more recently. I don't know… But I'm sure its you and not me! Hahaha
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
LOL. I don't know what could have led you to suspect that I was a theist, let alone a "big time theist." :)

I must not be praising Sam Harris, Dan Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Steven Pinker, Steven Weinberg, Lawrence Krauss, Michael Shermer,Bertrand Russell, Bill Maher, Dr. F, Jingy, et al enough. I'll try harder. :)

near Werner style

OMG. Really?! I'll try to be clearer!
WBraun

climber
Feb 9, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
HFCS is a closet theists.

The duck has seen him in there.

Actually there's no living entity that can escape the closet.

They just think they can .......
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